• Musicians generate all melodies & release them to public domain

    From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to All on Tue Feb 25 16:04:17 2020
    I heard about this today and thought it was interesting and funny. Two programmer-musicians created an algorithm & program to create every possible melody (via MIDI) and released it all to the public domain to prevent musicians from being sued. I wonder if this will really work.

    Article (shortened URL):
    https://bit.ly/2vj7l7o

    Full URL: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wxepzw/musicians-algorithmically-generate-ev ery-possible-melody-release-them-to-public-domain

    Nightfox

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  • From Arelor@VERT to Nightfox on Tue Feb 25 18:53:07 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all melodies & release them to public domain
    By: Nightfox to All on Tue Feb 25 2020 11:04 am

    I heard about this today and thought it was interesting and funny. Two programmer-musicians created an algorithm & program to create every possible melody
    (via MIDI) and released it all to the public domain to prevent musicians from being
    sued. I wonder if this will really work.

    I'd suspect not.

    I think programs cannot hold the copyright of the output they generate anyway.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Tue Feb 25 20:00:25 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all melodies & release them to public domain
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Tue Feb 25 2020 01:53 pm

    domain to prevent musicians from being sued. I wonder if this will
    really work.

    I'd suspect not.

    I think programs cannot hold the copyright of the output they generate anyway.

    Perhaps one could argue that whoever created the program/algorithm would own the copyright to the melodies it generates.

    Nightfox

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Tue Feb 25 22:26:00 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Nightfox to All on Tue Feb 25 2020 11:04 am

    I heard about this today and thought it was interesting and funny. Two prog r if this will really work.

    Article (shortened URL):
    https://bit.ly/2vj7l7o

    Full URL: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wxepzw/musicians-algorithmically-generate

    Nightfox


    That's intersting. I'd like to hear what the courts do with it. Awhile back I stumbled across a YouTube channel with an AI that assembles Swedish Death Metal tunes. It has some rudimentary understanding of scales, and the chord progressions and solos aren't horrible (at least for SDM.)

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  • From Pixel@VERT/NEONPLAZ to Nightfox on Tue Feb 25 22:46:32 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all melodies & release them to public domain
    By: Nightfox to All on Tue Feb 25 2020 11:04 am

    I heard about this today and thought it was interesting and funny.
    Two programmer-musicians created an algorithm & program to create
    every possible melody (via MIDI) and released it all to the public
    domain to prevent musicians from being sued. I wonder if this
    will
    really work.


    There are only so many combinations... someone was goign to do it eventually!

    Pixel.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Pixel on Wed Feb 26 15:23:54 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all melodies & release them to public dom
    By: Pixel to Nightfox on Tue Feb 25 2020 05:46 pm

    I heard about this today and thought it was interesting and funny.
    Two programmer-musicians created an algorithm & program to create
    every possible melody (via MIDI) and released it all to the public
    domain to prevent musicians from being sued. I wonder if this
    will
    really work.

    There are only so many combinations... someone was goign to do it eventually!

    Are you sure about that? When you consider things like the speed the melodies are played, the specific note pitch, length of time, etc. (there are probably other factors), I'd think there might be unlimited combinations that could be used for a melody. I'm a little skeptical about the "every possible melody" thing..

    Nightfox

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  • From Arelor@VERT to Nightfox on Wed Feb 26 15:54:12 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all melodies & release them to public domain
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Tue Feb 25 2020 03:00 pm

    Perhaps one could argue that whoever created the program/algorithm would own the
    copyright to the melodies it generates.

    Nightfox

    I am no lawyer, but I think the Berna convention most countries adhere to does not work that way.

    If you train a monkey to take pictures, the copyright "belongs" to the monkey. Since the monkey can't hold a copyright, the pictures the monkey takes are public domain. Ie, intellectual property generated in an autonomous manner by a tool does not have a holder. There was a recent case which involved some pictures posted on Wikipedia, and courts dictated that the pictures were public domain.

    (Sorry to say the trained monkey is a tool, but in practice he more or less is, so...)

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Wed Feb 26 18:11:01 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all melodies & release them to public domain
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Feb 26 2020 10:54 am

    I am no lawyer, but I think the Berna convention most countries adhere to does not work that way.

    If you train a monkey to take pictures, the copyright "belongs" to the monkey. Since the monkey can't hold a copyright, the pictures the monkey

    (Sorry to say the trained monkey is a tool, but in practice he more or less is, so...)

    I was going to say, a monkey is a living thing whereas a piece of software is not.. I guess that wouldn't matter? What would it mean for a piece of software to own a copyright?

    Nightfox

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  • From Arelor@VERT to Nightfox on Mon Mar 16 09:54:30 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all melodies & release them to public domain
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Feb 26 2020 01:11 pm

    I was going to say, a monkey is a living thing whereas a piece of software is not.. I guess that wouldn't matter? What would it mean for a piece of software to own a copyright?

    Well, a monkey here has barely more rights than a hammer or power drill.

    If a kid breaks into your farm and starts beating the pigs with a stick and you punch him, you are likely got to have a broken case in court because you used force to stop somebody who was damaging property but not people.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Tue Mar 17 13:17:00 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Mon Mar 16 2020 05:54 am

    Re: Musicians generate all melodies & release them to public domain
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Feb 26 2020 01:11 pm

    I was going to say, a monkey is a living thing whereas a piece of softwar is not.. I guess that wouldn't matter? What would it mean for a piece o software to own a copyright?

    Well, a monkey here has barely more rights than a hammer or power drill.

    If a kid breaks into your farm and starts beating the pigs with a stick and

    Not sure if it has been overturned yet, but for years there has been a push
    to remove a law that allows the use of deadly force to protect property after sundown. This was orginally a cattle rustling law, but also carried over to any possessions being removed your property. IIRC there was no cash value attached, so you could shoot a person in the act of taking spare change from your car. Repo men have been fighting to get this changed, since part of
    their job involves recovering property, the owner could claim they didn't
    know it was a repo man.

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  • From Arelor@VERT to Moondog on Tue Mar 17 15:14:50 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Tue Mar 17 2020 09:17 am

    Not sure if it has been overturned yet, but for years there has been a push to remove a law that allows the use of deadly force to protect property after sundown. This was orginally a cattle rustling law, but also carried over to any possessions being removed your property. IIRC there was no cash value attached, so you could shoot a person in the act of taking spare change from your car. Repo men have been fighting to get this changed, since part of
    their job involves recovering property, the owner could claim they didn't know it was a repo man.


    I have heard there are still laws in the deep south of the US stating that a cattle rustler may be hung. It suits me fine :-)

    But in the US you still have things like Castle Doctrine and Line on the Sand, so in some circumpstances you can protect your animals in scenarios where you are allowed to protect your property. If somebody attacks your horse in Spain, the most you can do is pull some illegal or improvised weapon knowing you are going to do jail time for him.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Wed Mar 18 03:06:00 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Tue Mar 17 2020 11:14 am

    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Tue Mar 17 2020 09:17 am

    Not sure if it has been overturned yet, but for years there has been a pu to remove a law that allows the use of deadly force to protect property after sundown. This was orginally a cattle rustling law, but also carrie over to any possessions being removed your property. IIRC there was no ca value attached, so you could shoot a person in the act of taking spare change from your car. Repo men have been fighting to get this changed, since part of
    their job involves recovering property, the owner could claim they didn't know it was a repo man.


    I have heard there are still laws in the deep south of the US stating that a

    But in the US you still have things like Castle Doctrine and Line on the San o is pull some illegal or improvised weapon knowing you are going to do jail

    Before the Castle Doctrine was made law in Michigan, the rule was attempt retreat. The judges then agreed if you are in your home, you are in your
    final retreat or castle. The rest is decided by the forensics guys.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sat Apr 4 16:10:29 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Tue Mar 17 2020 11:06 pm

    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Tue Mar 17 2020 11:14 am

    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Tue Mar 17 2020 09:17 am

    Not sure if it has been overturned yet, but for years there has been a to remove a law that allows the use of deadly force to protect propert after sundown. This was orginally a cattle rustling law, but also car over to any possessions being removed your property. IIRC there was no value attached, so you could shoot a person in the act of taking spare change from your car. Repo men have been fighting to get this changed since part of
    their job involves recovering property, the owner could claim they did know it was a repo man.


    I have heard there are still laws in the deep south of the US stating tha

    But in the US you still have things like Castle Doctrine and Line on the o is pull some illegal or improvised weapon knowing you are going to do j

    Before the Castle Doctrine was made law in Michigan, the rule was attempt retreat. The judges then agreed if you are in your home, you are in your final retreat or castle. The rest is decided by the forensics guys.


    what i hate is how i cant boobytrap my garage to get people that break into it. i locked it down good now, but i lost 2 lawnmowers.

    my grandpa had his rigged so if you didnt hit a switch a bunch of metal bars fell on you.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Mon Apr 6 14:24:00 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Apr 04 2020 12:10 pm



    what i hate is how i cant boobytrap my garage to get people that break into i locked it down good now, but i lost 2 lawnmowers.

    my grandpa had his rigged so if you didnt hit a switch a bunch of metal bars fell on you.


    Booby traps do not discriminate against who they hurt or kill. An alarm
    system could protect as well as expose when a robber strikes.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Mon Apr 6 21:39:33 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Apr 06 2020 10:24 am

    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Apr 04 2020 12:10 pm



    what i hate is how i cant boobytrap my garage to get people that break in i locked it down good now, but i lost 2 lawnmowers.

    my grandpa had his rigged so if you didnt hit a switch a bunch of metal b fell on you.


    Booby traps do not discriminate against who they hurt or kill. An alarm system could protect as well as expose when a robber strikes.


    alarm systems dont really protect. they make noise. they alert you.
    after having people steal my property i would like to give them something to remember me by.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Mon Apr 6 21:06:38 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon Apr 06 2020 05:39 pm

    alarm systems dont really protect. they make noise. they alert you.
    after having people steal my property i would like to give them something to remember me by.

    I think some alarm systems can also be set up to automatically call or alert the police if it detects a break-in so that the police can come into the area to hopefully catch the burglar. I've heard of alarms that do that silently the burglar is not alarted to the fact that the police are on the way.

    Nightfox

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  • From Arelor@VERT to Moondog on Tue Apr 7 08:00:39 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Apr 06 2020 10:24 am

    Booby traps do not discriminate against who they hurt or kill. An alarm system could protect as well as expose when a robber strikes.


    Alarm systems are overrated.

    They are only useful if you have security people nearby to respond to the alarm. Most burglars can clean your house of valuables in less time than a response arrives.

    I am not saying alarm systems are a bad idea, but it is so much better to invest on bars, security doors, that sort of thing.... you know, things that make it harder to actually break in. Once you have that, you can think about an alarm.

    I say this because I have been a burglar's victm. Or would have, if the armored door had not withstood.

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  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to Nightfox on Tue Apr 7 13:19:05 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Mon Apr 06 2020 05:06 pm

    alarm systems dont really protect. they make noise. they alert you. after having people steal my property i would like to give them something to remember me by.

    I think some alarm systems can also be set up to automatically call or alert the police if it detects a break-in so that the police can come into the area to hopefully catch the burglar. I've heard of alarms that do that silently the burglar is not alarted to the fact that the police are on the way.

    Ring alarm systems are inexpensive, easy to set up, and alert the authorities.

    ---TLM

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  • From ryan@VERT/MONTEREY to Arelor on Tue Apr 7 12:55:00 2020
    Alarm systems are overrated.

    I think a "Smile, you're on camera" sign is an effective deterrent.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/03/18 (Linux/64)
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Tue Apr 7 14:29:27 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Tue Apr 07 2020 04:00 am

    I am not saying alarm systems are a bad idea, but it is so much better to invest on bars, security doors, that sort of thing.... you know, things that make it harder to actually break in. Once you have that, you can think about an alarm.

    Very few houses I've seen in the US have bars on the windows & such things. I've had the impression that fewer people in the US have to worry about that kind of thing compared to other countries. I've visited Brazil a few times, and I noticed many houses & apartment buildings there have gates around them to help prevent unwanted people from getting in. Few houses or apartment buildings in the US have a gate around them, that I've seen. At least, in my area..

    Nightfox

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Tue Apr 7 16:57:00 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: MRO to Moondog on Mon Apr 06 2020 05:39 pm



    alarm systems dont really protect. they make noise. they alert you.
    after having people steal my property i would like to give them something to remember me by.


    Alarms are only a part of tiered strategy. You can probably find it online, but there is a chart with three bubbles overlappting - prevention, detection and correction. Alarms and cameras fall into the detection category. You cannot solve a problem if you don't know how it happened. Locks only keep
    the honest people out. Cameras and alarms let you know who and when you're be ing robbed. They also give you an idea how fast your defenses have been breeched, so you can plan to reinforce or add more protection.

    Back to locks and cameras and alarms, they are in place to slow down or make
    a would be intruder reconsider their actions. A neighbor had a break-in the other week, ans he had trail cameras by his barn and house on his second farm
    / rental property. The idiots had easily identifiable features, plus had a vehicle that was customized to be identified as well (tires, brush guard, windows decals.)

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to ryan on Tue Apr 7 17:53:00 2020
    ryan wrote to Arelor <=-

    Alarm systems are overrated.

    I think a "Smile, you're on camera" sign is an effective
    deterrent.

    Agreed. Perhaps a "Property insured by Smith & Wesson" sign can
    help too, in some areas. :-)



    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Tue Apr 7 21:51:00 2020
    Nightfox wrote to Arelor <=-

    I am not saying alarm systems are a bad idea, but it is so much better to invest on bars, security doors, that sort of thing.... you know, things that make it harder to actually break in. Once you have that, you can think about an alarm.

    Very few houses I've seen in the US have bars on the windows &
    such things. I've had the impression that fewer people in the US
    have to worry about that kind of thing compared to other
    countries. I've visited Brazil a few times, and I noticed many
    houses & apartment buildings there have gates around them to help
    prevent unwanted people from getting in. Few houses or apartment buildings in the US have a gate around them, that I've seen. At
    least, in my area..

    We have guns. ;-)



    ... To err is human, to forgive is against SysOp policy.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Tue Apr 7 21:00:34 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Tue Apr 07 2020 05:51 pm

    Very few houses I've seen in the US have bars on the windows &
    such things. I've had the impression that fewer people in the US
    have to worry about that kind of thing compared to other
    countries. I've visited Brazil a few times, and I noticed many
    houses & apartment buildings there have gates around them to help
    prevent unwanted people from getting in. Few houses or apartment
    buildings in the US have a gate around them, that I've seen. At
    least, in my area..

    We have guns. ;-)

    But what if nobody is home?

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Wed Apr 8 01:38:00 2020
    Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Very few houses I've seen in the US have bars on the windows &
    such things. I've had the impression that fewer people in the US
    have to worry about that kind of thing compared to other
    countries. I've visited Brazil a few times, and I noticed many
    houses & apartment buildings there have gates around them to help
    prevent unwanted people from getting in. Few houses or apartment
    buildings in the US have a gate around them, that I've seen. At
    least, in my area..

    We have guns. ;-)

    But what if nobody is home?

    That's where the armed alarm system, with a cellular connection to
    a monitoring service, comes in. Alarm goes off, the service calls
    the local police to respond. I know that was already discussed,
    but that's about all you can do if nobody's home.



    ... It's a chain saw. I always carry one for emergencies.
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  • From ryan@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Wed Apr 8 02:13:00 2020
    Agreed. Perhaps a "Property insured by Smith & Wesson" sign can
    help too, in some areas. :-)

    Hehe. Maybe an NRA sticker? I've actually heard of some people installing
    false cameras just to serve as deterrents.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/03/18 (Linux/64)
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Wed Apr 8 04:23:41 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Tue Apr 07 2020 04:00 am


    Booby traps do not discriminate against who they hurt or kill. An alarm system could protect as well as expose when a robber strikes.


    Alarm systems are overrated.

    They are only useful if you have security people nearby to respond to the alarm. Most burglars can clean your house of valuables in less time than a response arrives.

    I am not saying alarm systems are a bad idea, but it is so much better to invest on bars, security doors, that sort of thing.... you know, things that make it harder to actually break in. Once you have that, you can think about alarm.

    I say this because I have been a burglar's victm. Or would have, if the armo


    yeah, most burglars take the easiest route for everything and they are in and out in a couple of minutes.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to The Lizard Master on Wed Apr 8 04:26:03 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: The Lizard Master to Nightfox on Tue Apr 07 2020 09:19 am

    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Mon Apr 06 2020 05:06 pm

    alarm systems dont really protect. they make noise. they alert you. after having people steal my property i would like to give them something to remember me by.

    I think some alarm systems can also be set up to automatically call or al the police if it detects a break-in so that the police can come into the area to hopefully catch the burglar. I've heard of alarms that do that silently the burglar is not alarted to the fact that the police are on th way.

    Ring alarm systems are inexpensive, easy to set up, and alert the authoritie


    well they are hundreds of dollars. and require a subscription. i went with arlo cams.

    anyways, if you cut the power, the internet goes and no workie.

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to ryan on Wed Apr 8 04:27:29 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: ryan to Arelor on Tue Apr 07 2020 08:55 am

    Alarm systems are overrated.

    I think a "Smile, you're on camera" sign is an effective deterrent.


    i have real cameras and then i got a bunch of fake ones with a light that comes on when it's dark. my real ones cover a lot of area but the fakes are very visible.

    i think the fake ones are a good deterrant for the type of thiefs in my area.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Wed Apr 8 03:40:00 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Tue Apr 07 2020 10:29 am

    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Tue Apr 07 2020 04:00 am

    I am not saying alarm systems are a bad idea, but it is so much better invest on bars, security doors, that sort of thing.... you know, things that make it harder to actually break in. Once you have that, you can think about an alarm.

    Very few houses I've seen in the US have bars on the windows & such things. es & apartment buildings there have gates around them to help prevent unwant

    Nightfox


    I never heard an explanation for it, but apparently robbers do not like to break windows. I think it has to do with dealing with broken glass. Unfortunately the assholes that broke into my friend's place did break a window. Some systems I've seen in office buildings listen for heavy impacts and the sound of breaking glass.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Wed Apr 8 03:43:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Tue Apr 07 2020 05:51 pm

    We have guns. ;-)



    ... To err is human, to forgive is against SysOp policy.

    Guns are worthless unless someone is home to use them against invaders. If you're home, it's home invasion. If you're not, it's breaking and entering.

    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to ryan on Wed Apr 8 11:46:00 2020
    ryan wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Agreed. Perhaps a "Property insured by Smith & Wesson" sign can
    help too, in some areas. :-)

    Hehe. Maybe an NRA sticker?

    Couldn't hurt!

    I've actually heard of some people
    installing false cameras just to serve as deterrents.

    Yes, I've heard of that too, and I bet it actually does prevent
    some crime.



    ... Eye witnesses were on the scene in minutes.
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  • From Rampage@VERT/SESTAR to MRO on Wed Apr 8 13:17:20 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Apr 08 2020 00:26:03


    anyways, if you cut the power, the internet goes and no workie.

    by the same token, wifi and cell signals can also be easily blocked... the transmitter power doesn't have to be that strong, either... it only needs to block/overwhelm the targetted system(s) and prevent comms for some time while the action is taking place... granted, it is an unlicensed transmitter and thus against federal law but criminals are criminals and what's one more law broken to them?


    )\/(ark

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  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to MRO on Wed Apr 8 20:21:41 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Apr 08 2020 12:26 am

    well they are hundreds of dollars. and require a subscription. i went with arlo cams.

    anyways, if you cut the power, the internet goes and no workie.

    If someone is going to oceans 11 me, cut my power, and rob me, they will soon find out that it was not worth the effort.

    ---TLM

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  • From Rampage@VERT/SESTAR to The Lizard Master on Wed Apr 8 23:38:28 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: The Lizard Master to MRO on Wed Apr 08 2020 16:21:41


    anyways, if you cut the power, the internet goes and no workie.

    If someone is going to oceans 11 me, cut my power, and rob me, they
    will soon find out that it was not worth the effort.

    what effort? a pair of wire cutters and a 1/4 inch nut driver... clip the lock thing on the meter base, remove the locking ring, open the base, pull the meter, done ;)


    )\/(ark

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR
  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to Rampage on Thu Apr 9 16:45:39 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Rampage to The Lizard Master on Wed Apr 08 2020 07:38 pm

    If someone is going to oceans 11 me, cut my power, and rob me, they will soon find out that it was not worth the effort.

    what effort? a pair of wire cutters and a 1/4 inch nut driver... clip the lock thing on the meter base, remove the locking ring, open the base, pull the meter, done ;)

    Lol, I meant more not the effort as in, sure, have at my record collection and old TV.

    ---TLM

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Nite Eyes BBS - To make people happy about my tagline everywhere...
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to ryan on Fri Apr 10 00:22:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: ryan to Gamgee on Tue Apr 07 2020 10:13 pm

    Agreed. Perhaps a "Property insured by Smith & Wesson" sign can
    help too, in some areas. :-)

    Hehe. Maybe an NRA sticker? I've actually heard of some people installing false cameras just to serve as deterrents.


    NRA sticker doesn't help if you're not home. It tells the robbers that you have firearms in the house, and there's a chance you don't have them all locke d up in a safe or vault room. A friend came up with the strategy of placing a
    cheap Walmart gun locker in his garage full of rakes and brooms, while the good fire safe is behind a false wall in a closet. He also has a glass door display cabinet full of old shotguns and pellet rifles he bought at garage sales and auctions. Some are missing parts or cannot be repaired, and the
    ones that fire will probably kill whoever is handling them.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Rampage on Fri Apr 10 00:27:00 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Rampage to MRO on Wed Apr 08 2020 09:17 am

    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Apr 08 2020 00:26:03


    anyways, if you cut the power, the internet goes and no workie.

    by the same token, wifi and cell signals can also be easily blocked... the t ce... granted, it is an unlicensed transmitter and thus against federal law


    )\/(ark


    the druggee looking for items to pawn for heroin money is not going to construct a cell or wifi jammer. However, they may cut random cables going into your house in hopes of cutting off your cable internet. Place cameras
    or IR motion detectors in those areas.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From HSM@VERT/FREESPEA to Moondog on Fri Apr 10 10:38:00 2020
    On 09 Apr 2020, Moondog said the following...
    NRA sticker doesn't help if you're not home. It tells the robbers that yo have firearms in the house, and there's a chance you don't have them all l d up in a safe or vault room. A friend came up with the strategy of placi
    cheap Walmart gun locker in his garage full of rakes and brooms, while th

    Seem like leaving a broken laptop on your car seat. The laptop may be broken but you've just inticed them to break the window.

    -=- HSM -=-
    -=ssh/http/telnet://thefreespeak.com=-

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/03/26 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: -=- TheFreeSpeak.com -=- Pittsburgh, PA -=-
  • From Arelor@VERT to MRO on Fri Apr 10 10:50:39 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Apr 08 2020 12:26 am

    I think some alarm systems can also be set up to automatically call or al the police if it detects a break-in so that the police can come into the area to hopefully catch the burglar. I've heard of alarms that do that silently the burglar is not alarted to the fact that the police are on th way.

    Ring alarm systems are inexpensive, easy to set up, and alert the authoritie


    well they are hundreds of dollars. and require a subscription. i went with arlo cams.

    anyways, if you cut the power, the internet goes and no workie.


    Most comercial offerings for alarm systems I don't like. The agent of the security company will arrive to your premises with an idea of what they want to sell to you before they have seen your place.

    The only security company whose alarm offering I ever considered started advicing to reinforce the doors and set proper access control, then think about the alarm. That said, they were not a consumer grade company. More like the company you hire to protect a power plant.

    That said, security companies worth the oil needed to make them burn in hell have protocols for when they lose signal from the alarm system. They usually have more than one channel of communication. Some bypass the Internet even. You can beat any alarm with the right equipment but the good ones take more effort than just cutting a wire or two.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Rampage on Fri Apr 10 13:47:42 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Moondog to Rampage on Thu Apr 09 2020 08:27 pm

    the druggee looking for items to pawn for heroin money is not going to construct a cell or wifi jammer. However, they may cut random cables going into your house in hopes of cutting off your cable internet. Place cameras or IR motion detectors in those areas.

    A "Druggie" will break a window and be in and out with your TV, PC, or whatever they can grab in under 5 mins. If he/she sets an alarm off then under two.

    HusTler@havens.synchro.net
    Proud operator Synchronet BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Moondog on Fri Apr 10 16:03:51 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Moondog to ryan on Thu Apr 09 2020 08:22 pm

    Hehe. Maybe an NRA sticker? I've actually heard of some people
    installing false cameras just to serve as deterrents.

    If I was a theif, and I saw an NRA sticker, I'd immediately assume that house was perfect for robbing, as they likely just leave guns laying all over. Most of the NRA members I know are horribly irresponsible with their firearms.

    There are plenty of other organizations that promote responsible gun ownership that deserve support.


    Also, my house has a fake camera on it pointing towards the driveway. It's been there since I bought the place 12 years ago. I don't know if it's been a deterrent, but I know my truck was broken into at least once, so it defintely didn't do any good that time.

    DaiTengu

    ... We are going to have peace even if we have to fight for it.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to HusTler on Fri Apr 10 16:08:05 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: HusTler to Rampage on Fri Apr 10 2020 09:47 am

    A "Druggie" will break a window and be in and out with your TV, PC, or whatever they can grab in under 5 mins. If he/she sets an alarm off then under two.

    Good luck getting any of that out of my house. THere's so many cords and wires in the way of even moving things that he/she would have a hell of a time even if they tried to unplug them all.

    Not to mention a 93lb German Shepard (She's a little tubby) and a 135lb Alaskan Malamute to contend with.

    Oh, and my neighbor's two German Shepards. He's one of the local K9 officers for our city :)

    DaiTengu

    ... A group of the unfit appointed by the unwilling to do the necessary.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to HSM on Fri Apr 10 15:43:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: HSM to Moondog on Fri Apr 10 2020 06:38 am

    On 09 Apr 2020, Moondog said the following...
    NRA sticker doesn't help if you're not home. It tells the robbers that have firearms in the house, and there's a chance you don't have them al d up in a safe or vault room. A friend came up with the strategy of pl
    cheap Walmart gun locker in his garage full of rakes and brooms, while

    Seem like leaving a broken laptop on your car seat. The laptop may be broke but you've just inticed them to break the window.

    -=- HSM -=-
    -=ssh/http/telnet://thefreespeak.com=-


    Unlike the car, they are not visibly enticing from the outside.
    In order for them to see them, the house has to be broken into first. In
    order to look in a window, the intruder has to step off the main walkway or driveway. If they are anywhere else on the property without the owner's permission, they're trespassing.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Rampage@VERT/SESTAR to HusTler on Fri Apr 10 17:49:36 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: HusTler to Rampage on Fri Apr 10 2020 09:47:42


    the druggee looking for items to pawn for heroin money is not going to construct a cell or wifi jammer. However, they may cut random cables going into your house in hopes of cutting off your cable internet. Place
    cameras or IR motion detectors in those areas.

    HusTler> A "Druggie" will break a window and be in and out with your TV, PC, or whatever they can grab in under 5 mins. If he/she sets an alarm off then under two.

    i didn't write that... somehow you replied to the wrong party...


    )\/(ark

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR
  • From Rampage@VERT/SESTAR to DaiTengu on Fri Apr 10 17:52:17 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: DaiTengu to HusTler on Fri Apr 10 2020 12:08:05


    A "Druggie" will break a window and be in and out with your TV, PC, or whatever they can grab in under 5 mins. If he/she sets an alarm off then under two.

    DaiTengu> Good luck getting any of that out of my house. THere's so many cords and wires in the way of even moving things that he/she would have a hell of a time even if they tried to unplug them all.

    that's where wire cutters come in handy... you can get replacement wires quite easily and installing them is nothing...


    DaiTengu> Not to mention a 93lb German Shepard (She's a little tubby) and a 135lb Alaskan Malamute to contend with.

    DaiTengu> Oh, and my neighbor's two German Shepards. He's one of the local K9 officers for our city :)

    those animals, on the other hand, should be quite nice deterrents ;)


    )\/(ark

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Rampage on Fri Apr 10 20:43:59 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Rampage to MRO on Wed Apr 08 2020 09:17 am

    by the same token, wifi and cell signals can also be easily blocked... the transmitter power doesn't have to be that strong, either... it only needs to block/overwhelm the targetted system(s) and prevent comms for some time whil the action is taking place... granted, it is an unlicensed transmitter and t


    i used to have a cellphone jammer. it was so much fun. i'd ride the bus and someone would be real noisey on the phone so i'd turn it on. then they'd get all confused and shake the phone and other shit. shake out the demons?

    then i'd let them talk for another minute and then click it back on.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Fri Apr 10 22:39:00 2020
    DaiTengu wrote to Moondog <=-

    Hehe. Maybe an NRA sticker? I've actually heard of some people
    installing false cameras just to serve as deterrents.

    If I was a theif, and I saw an NRA sticker, I'd immediately
    assume that house was perfect for robbing, as they likely just
    leave guns laying all over.

    Really? You "assume" that, eh? Do you ACTUALLY believe that's
    true?

    Most of the NRA members I know are horribly irresponsible
    with their firearms.

    That's strange... I know MANY members, and not a single one of
    them is in any way irresponsible with firearms.

    You're not just making that up for political points, are you?

    There are plenty of other organizations that promote responsible
    gun ownership that deserve support.

    Probably true, but why the inference that the NRA doesn't deserve
    support?


    ... Eye witnesses were on the scene in minutes.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Sat Apr 11 05:29:00 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Arelor to MRO on Fri Apr 10 2020 06:50 am

    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: MRO to The Lizard Master on Wed Apr 08 2020 12:26 am

    I think some alarm systems can also be set up to automatically call al the police if it detects a break-in so that the police can come into the area to hopefully catch the burglar. I've heard of alarms that do that silently the burglar is not alarted to the fact that t police are on th way.

    Ring alarm systems are inexpensive, easy to set up, and alert the authoritie


    well they are hundreds of dollars. and require a subscription. i went wit arlo cams.

    anyways, if you cut the power, the internet goes and no workie.


    Most comercial offerings for alarm systems I don't like. The agent of the se

    The only security company whose alarm offering I ever considered started adv ct a power plant.

    That said, security companies worth the oil needed to make them burn in hell ith the right equipment but the good ones take more effort than just cutting


    Corporate or business grade monitoring is pricey, but well worth it if your business is your means of survival. A local tavern has microphones and speakers on their cameras, so the monitoring company can verify vendors delivering food supplies or beer without having to wake up the owners. I saw
    a video the other day from a camera on a porch with audio, and it was of
    three girls deciding whether to take a package off someone's porch.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to HusTler on Sat Apr 11 05:39:00 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: HusTler to Rampage on Fri Apr 10 2020 09:47 am

    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Moondog to Rampage on Thu Apr 09 2020 08:27 pm

    the druggee looking for items to pawn for heroin money is not going to construct a cell or wifi jammer. However, they may cut random cables goi into your house in hopes of cutting off your cable internet. Place camer or IR motion detectors in those areas.

    A "Druggie" will break a window and be in and out with your TV, PC, or wha

    HusTler@havens.synchro.net
    Proud operator Synchronet BBS


    Regardless, I'd want to know when and a chance of catching who on video so
    they can be identified later. Items you cannot put away such as TV's should have ID numbers etched in or other form of property identification so you can recover an item if it ends up in a pawn shop.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to DaiTengu on Sat Apr 11 05:58:00 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: DaiTengu to HusTler on Fri Apr 10 2020 12:08 pm

    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: HusTler to Rampage on Fri Apr 10 2020 09:47 am

    A "Druggie" will break a window and be in and out with your TV, PC, or whatever they can grab in under 5 mins. If he/she sets an alarm off the under two.

    Good luck getting any of that out of my house. THere's so many cords and wi

    Not to mention a 93lb German Shepard (She's a little tubby) and a 135lb Alas

    Oh, and my neighbor's two German Shepards. He's one of the local K9 officer

    DaiTengu

    ... A group of the unfit appointed by the unwilling to do the necessary.

    Reducing the amoun of time spent in a house also helps. A couple of years
    ago a house down the road was robbed, and the robbers took a 400lb safe.
    They had enough time to flip it on it's side on top of a small rug, and slide it out the door across their polished wood flooring. I've heard of golf balls
    also used to roll heavy items out. If a thief thinks they have lots of
    time, such as if they know you left for work and no one else is home, they might spend that extra time looking in closets or digging through drawers for valuables or even keys so they can come back any time without detection.
    Lock boxes and safes would be items to grab or break into on return visits.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Sat Apr 11 14:49:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to DaiTengu <=-

    Reducing the amoun of time spent in a house also helps. A couple
    of years ago a house down the road was robbed, and the robbers
    took a 400lb safe. They had enough time to flip it on it's side
    on top of a small rug, and slide it out the door across their
    polished wood flooring. I've heard of golf balls
    also used to roll heavy items out. If a thief thinks they have
    lots of time, such as if they know you left for work and no one
    else is home, they might spend that extra time looking in closets
    or digging through drawers for valuables or even keys so they can
    come back any time without detection. Lock boxes and safes would
    be items to grab or break into on return visits.

    Any "serious" safe should be bolted (internally) to the floor
    and/or wall to prevent that scenario.



    ... Behind every great man is an amazed mother-in-law!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Sat Apr 11 16:38:26 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Sat Apr 11 2020 01:29 am

    speakers on their cameras, so the monitoring company can verify vendors delivering food supplies or beer without having to wake up the owners. I sa a video the other day from a camera on a porch with audio, and it was of three girls deciding whether to take a package off someone's porch.


    the other week i saw someone up on the porch fucking with a package and her dog took a piss on my bench.

    i saw her later on and chased her down and scared the shit out of her.
    i think she was going to take the package but it was too heavy for her to carry. it was kitty litter.
    she said she thought it was stuff for a dog.

    i told her i have cameras everywhere and i'm looking to catch people.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Sandman@VERT/HAVENS to MRO on Sun Apr 12 02:19:21 2020
    Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: MRO to Moondog on Sat Apr 11 2020 12:38 pm

    the other week i saw someone up on the porch fucking with a package and her dog took a piss on my bench.

    i saw her later on and chased her down and scared the shit out of her.
    i think she was going to take the package but it was too heavy for her to carry. it was kitty litter.
    she said she thought it was stuff for a dog.

    That's sad. That shit happens all over the country. You guys that have guns need to take a shot at one of dem MFs. Make em think twice about checking out other peoples packages. Now with the entire world ordering shit from Amazon these basdagis will be out in gangs. Louzy cuck sukers violate my fuging rights!
    (Stolen from "Johny Dangerously")

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Sun Apr 12 17:48:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Fri Apr 10 2020 06:39 pm


    That's strange... I know MANY members, and not a single one of
    them is in any way irresponsible with firearms.

    You're not just making that up for political points, are you?

    There are plenty of other organizations that promote responsible
    gun ownership that deserve support.

    Probably true, but why the inference that the NRA doesn't deserve
    support?


    ... Eye witnesses were on the scene in minutes.

    Irresponsible was a poor choice of words on my behalf. Some owners I know
    have nice safes and even bunker-like rooms with heavy steel doors, while
    others stash guns in their closets, dresser drawers, or under beds without
    any form of security cable ot other form of retention. A locked gun cabinet with a glass front is ok to stop junior and his buddies from touching
    firearms without permission, however that won't stop a criminal. Most
    serious collectors are willing to spend the extra money to store their
    assets, however I don't feel it's uncommon for the owner who has a deer
    rifle, and maybe a shotgun or .22 rifle to have less than adequate security
    in place to protect those firearms.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Sun Apr 12 17:54:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sat Apr 11 2020 10:49 am

    Any "serious" safe should be bolted (internally) to the floor
    and/or wall to prevent that scenario.



    ... Behind every great man is an amazed mother-in-law!

    Agreed. Weight is not an issue if you have leverage, rollers or can slide
    the item across a floor. I'd go even further and bolt the safe down in a corner of a closet or build a framework around it that prevents applying leverage without cutting away material around it. Even a confined space such ats a closet prevents long pry bars from being used.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Sun Apr 12 20:27:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Fri Apr 10 2020 06:39 pm

    That's strange... I know MANY members, and not a single one of
    them is in any way irresponsible with firearms.

    You're not just making that up for political points, are you?

    There are plenty of other organizations that promote responsible
    gun ownership that deserve support.

    Probably true, but why the inference that the NRA doesn't deserve
    support?

    Irresponsible was a poor choice of words on my behalf. Some
    owners I know have nice safes and even bunker-like rooms with
    heavy steel doors, while others stash guns in their closets,
    dresser drawers, or under beds without any form of security cable
    ot other form of retention. A locked gun cabinet with a glass
    front is ok to stop junior and his buddies from touching
    firearms without permission, however that won't stop a criminal.
    Most serious collectors are willing to spend the extra money to
    store their assets, however I don't feel it's uncommon for the
    owner who has a deer rifle, and maybe a shotgun or .22 rifle to
    have less than adequate security in place to protect those
    firearms.

    I don't have any disagreement with what you're saying here. My
    point was that the other poster (DaiTengu) was trying to make it
    appear that most/all "NRA members" were (by definition)
    irresponsible gun owners.

    That is obviously not true, and was said for strictly political
    reasons. I would go so far as to say that, as a group, NRA
    members are *FAR* more responsible than non-members.

    Long live the Second Amendment.



    ... Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From ryan@VERT/MONTEREY to Gamgee on Mon Apr 13 03:34:00 2020
    I don't have any disagreement with what you're saying here. My
    point was that the other poster (DaiTengu) was trying to make it
    appear that most/all "NRA members" were (by definition)
    irresponsible gun owners.

    That is obviously not true, and was said for strictly political
    reasons. I would go so far as to say that, as a group, NRA
    members are *FAR* more responsible than non-members.

    I'm not casting my vote in any sort of gun debate, but are you really going
    to try denying conjecture by offering conjecture?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/03/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: monterey bbs
  • From Arelor@VERT to Gamgee on Mon Apr 13 10:29:17 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sat Apr 11 2020 10:49 am

    Any "serious" safe should be bolted (internally) to the floor
    and/or wall to prevent that scenario.

    Agreed.

    But many serious safes I have are only granted against 30 minutes of assault with heavy tools or so. I assume that with specialized equipment you can pop them up on site in 31.

    But then, you need to carry so much equipment that is no longer practical a burglary :-P

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to ryan on Mon Apr 13 12:17:00 2020
    ryan wrote to Gamgee <=-

    That is obviously not true, and was said for strictly political
    reasons. I would go so far as to say that, as a group, NRA
    members are *FAR* more responsible than non-members.

    I'm not casting my vote in any sort of gun debate, but are you
    really going to try denying conjecture by offering conjecture?

    Do you wear skinny-jeans and Vans slip-ons?


    ... Facts cannot prevail against faith, or adamant folly.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Mon Apr 13 17:23:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sun Apr 12 2020 04:27 pm

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Fri Apr 10 2020 06:39 pm

    That's strange... I know MANY members, and not a single one of
    them is in any way irresponsible with firearms.

    You're not just making that up for political points, are you?

    There are plenty of other organizations that promote responsible
    gun ownership that deserve support.

    Probably true, but why the inference that the NRA doesn't deserve support?

    Irresponsible was a poor choice of words on my behalf. Some
    owners I know have nice safes and even bunker-like rooms with
    heavy steel doors, while others stash guns in their closets,
    dresser drawers, or under beds without any form of security cable
    ot other form of retention. A locked gun cabinet with a glass
    front is ok to stop junior and his buddies from touching
    firearms without permission, however that won't stop a criminal.
    Most serious collectors are willing to spend the extra money to
    store their assets, however I don't feel it's uncommon for the
    owner who has a deer rifle, and maybe a shotgun or .22 rifle to
    have less than adequate security in place to protect those
    firearms.

    I don't have any disagreement with what you're saying here. My
    point was that the other poster (DaiTengu) was trying to make it
    appear that most/all "NRA members" were (by definition)
    irresponsible gun owners.

    That is obviously not true, and was said for strictly political
    reasons. I would go so far as to say that, as a group, NRA
    members are *FAR* more responsible than non-members.

    Long live the Second Amendment.



    ... Chuck Norris can divide by zero.

    Some of it I think comes down to investment, or lack of recognition of investment versus the price of a good safe. It's like the feeling some get when investing in good optics. For a hunting rifle you could spend as much
    on a scope as you did the rifle, howver some buy a $50 for an $700 rifle and call it good. Granted there are some good budget optics out there, but if
    you get into competition, takes carbine defensive courses or rely on a
    firearm to work in the worst weather and harsh conditions, a better optic should be expected.

    Back to a safe, a $400-$500 safe is a starting point. Even then, some can be cut into by pros easily if they're not bolted down or placed in a hard to access area.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Gamgee on Mon Apr 13 02:44:56 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Fri Apr 10 2020 06:39 pm

    Most of the NRA members I know are horribly irresponsible
    with their firearms.

    That's strange... I know MANY members, and not a single one of
    them is in any way irresponsible with firearms.

    See, it's all subjective.

    There are plenty of other organizations that promote responsible
    gun ownership that deserve support.

    Probably true, but why the inference that the NRA doesn't deserve support?

    The NRA leadership is so blinded by their raging hard-ons for the 2nd ammendment that any suggestion that changes gun ownership laws, no matter how small, becomes "THEY'RE TAKING AWAY OUR GUNS!"

    DaiTengu

    ... It works better if you plug it in.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Mon Apr 13 20:08:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Some of it I think comes down to investment, or lack of
    recognition of investment versus the price of a good safe. It's
    like the feeling some get when investing in good optics. For a
    hunting rifle you could spend as much on a scope as you did the
    rifle, howver some buy a $50 for an $700 rifle and call it good.
    Granted there are some good budget optics out there, but if you
    get into competition, takes carbine defensive courses or rely on
    a firearm to work in the worst weather and harsh conditions, a
    better optic should be expected.

    Absolutely. In the firearm and related accessories business, the
    old saying "You get what you pay for" is VERY applicable. There
    are probably some expected-use cases where a budget scope or
    similar would be good enough, but only for casual
    shooters/hunters, generally.

    Back to a safe, a $400-$500 safe is a starting point. Even then,
    some can be cut into by pros easily if they're not bolted down or
    placed in a hard to access area.

    Indeed. No matter the price of the safe, it should always be
    bolted down. Even a cheap "locker", which in some situations
    might be enough protection, should be bolted down. No reason not
    to do that.



    ... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Mon Apr 13 22:55:00 2020
    DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Most of the NRA members I know are horribly irresponsible
    with their firearms.

    That's strange... I know MANY members, and not a single one of
    them is in any way irresponsible with firearms.

    See, it's all subjective.

    Yes, I suppose it is. It's always hard to know the real truth
    when we speak in sweeping generalities.

    There are plenty of other organizations that promote responsible
    gun ownership that deserve support.

    Probably true, but why the inference that the NRA doesn't deserve
    support?

    The NRA leadership is so blinded by their raging hard-ons for
    the 2nd ammendment that any suggestion that changes gun ownership
    laws, no matter how small, becomes "THEY'RE TAKING AWAY OUR
    GUNS!"

    I understand your point, and I suspect we won't likely agree much
    on this issue.... But let me ask you this, to see if you think I
    might be right:

    Your "no matter how small" statement is the key. Yes, some folks
    (in the NRA and elsewhere) do get upset at even small changes in
    gun ownership laws. Why? Well, it's quite simple. Everyone
    knows that Americans wouldn't stand for some bold and complete
    revocation of gun ownership rights in this country, done in one
    fell swoop. So, if one's goal is to ACTUALLY accomplish that
    (removing guns from the common citizen), the ONLY way to succeed
    is to do it a very little bit at a time. Kind of like stealing a
    few cents from a rich bank account every day, over the course of
    years/decades. Nobody will notice such a small thing. But, over
    the course of a generation or two, huge changes can be done, and
    all of a sudden..... It's illegal to own a gun in America. That's
    the method that the anti-gun crowd is using. Don't bother trying
    to deny that, because it's an obvious truth, and everyone on both
    sides knows that. It's the old "slippery slope" scenario. I mean,
    just look at states like California, and how far they've already
    come in their pursuit of this issue. There are MASSIVE restrictions
    in place there RIGHT NOW, that are not present in nearly any other
    state. If allowed to continue, how can the end result be anything
    other than the complete dis-arming of America?

    I say all of that in a logical manner and non-confrontational
    tone. How else can the erosion of rights guaranteed to us by our
    national Constitution be described? It's quite plain and clear
    that that is the goal of (most of) the left-wing political party
    in this country. For those that enjoy the legal use of firearms
    for recreation/competition, how can they just stand idly by and
    watch their rights be taken away? How would you react if some
    group of people wanted to take something away from you that you
    had a right to be doing?

    Let me know your thoughts on the above.



    ... Chance makes our parents, but choice makes our friends.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to DaiTengu on Mon Apr 13 23:59:21 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: DaiTengu to Gamgee on Sun Apr 12 2020 10:44 pm


    The NRA leadership is so blinded by their raging hard-ons for the 2nd ammendment that any suggestion that changes gun ownership laws, no matter how small, becomes "THEY'RE TAKING AWAY OUR GUNS!"

    I don't hear that from the NRA at all. What I hear is if we let you take away our AK-47 what will you take next? Besides even if a federal Law was passed each State has their own laws. Try and get the Texas or Florida gun owners to give up their guns. They would never let that happen without a gunfight a real gunfight. Would you be willing to be in that fight? Maybe we should take guns away from cops too?

    HusTler@havens.synchro.net

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Arelor@VERT to DaiTengu on Tue Apr 14 11:12:52 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: DaiTengu to Gamgee on Sun Apr 12 2020 10:44 pm

    The NRA leadership is so blinded by their raging hard-ons for the 2nd ammendment that any suggestion that changes gun ownership laws, no matter how small, becomes "THEY'RE TAKING AWAY OUR GUNS!"


    Experience shows that small changes will lead to big changes if left unopposed.

    Anyway, in the here target shooting federation, the ones who get themselves killed seem to be the cops. They are the ones making illegal and dangerous modifications on their weapons and blowing their brains out as a result. Probably because they thing there is nobody stopping them from making illegal modificationas since they are the authority figures.

    I think idiots in uniform are a bigger threat than guns staying out of a safe.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Tue Apr 14 15:28:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Arelor to Gamgee on Mon Apr 13 2020 06:29 am

    Re: Re: Musicians generate all me
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sat Apr 11 2020 10:49 am

    Any "serious" safe should be bolted (internally) to the floor
    and/or wall to prevent that scenario.

    Agreed.

    But many serious safes I have are only granted against 30 minutes of assault

    But then, you need to carry so much equipment that is no longer practical a


    Agreed. A safe by itself is only good for the time it takes to crack it or
    the time it takes to remove from the premises. A good defense includes multiple tiers of defense as a means to either make a job not worth doing or m inimize the time spent on the job.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Tue Apr 14 15:46:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Mon Apr 13 2020 04:08 pm


    Absolutely. In the firearm and related accessories business, the
    old saying "You get what you pay for" is VERY applicable. There
    are probably some expected-use cases where a budget scope or
    similar would be good enough, but only for casual
    shooters/hunters, generally.

    Back to a safe, a $400-$500 safe is a starting point. Even then,
    some can be cut into by pros easily if they're not bolted down or placed in a hard to access area.

    Indeed. No matter the price of the safe, it should always be
    bolted down. Even a cheap "locker", which in some situations
    might be enough protection, should be bolted down. No reason not
    to do that.

    I used to keep a box of cheap scopes and scope rings and other items I broke
    to remind me why I shouldn't moan as much about paying a little more for more consistent performance. Some budget scopes are fine, and even the basic stamped steel locker type cabinets have some value. Cabinets work best
    bolted in the back of cloests where you're not going to get good leverage
    withg a pry bar.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Tue Apr 14 15:59:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Mon Apr 13 2020 06:55 pm



    I understand your point, and I suspect we won't likely agree much
    on this issue.... But let me ask you this, to see if you think I
    might be right:

    Your "no matter how small" statement is the key. Yes, some folks
    (in the NRA and elsewhere) do get upset at even small changes in
    gun ownership laws. Why? Well, it's quite simple. Everyone
    knows that Americans wouldn't stand for some bold and complete
    revocation of gun ownership rights in this country, done in one
    fell swoop. So, if one's goal is to ACTUALLY accomplish that
    (removing guns from the common citizen), the ONLY way to succeed
    is to do it a very little bit at a time. Kind of like stealing a
    few cents from a rich bank account every day, over the course of years/decades. Nobody will notice such a small thing. But, over
    the course of a generation or two, huge changes can be done, and
    all of a sudden..... It's illegal to own a gun in America. That's
    the method that the anti-gun crowd is using. Don't bother trying
    to deny that, because it's an obvious truth, and everyone on both
    sides knows that. It's the old "slippery slope" scenario. I mean,
    just look at states like California, and how far they've already
    come in their pursuit of this issue. There are MASSIVE restrictions
    in place there RIGHT NOW, that are not present in nearly any other
    state. If allowed to continue, how can the end result be anything
    other than the complete dis-arming of America?

    I say all of that in a logical manner and non-confrontational
    tone. How else can the erosion of rights guaranteed to us by our
    national Constitution be described? It's quite plain and clear
    that that is the goal of (most of) the left-wing political party
    in this country. For those that enjoy the legal use of firearms
    for recreation/competition, how can they just stand idly by and
    watch their rights be taken away? How would you react if some
    group of people wanted to take something away from you that you
    had a right to be doing?

    Let me know your thoughts on the above.


    You're spot on. Mountains are moved by starting with removing smaller stones.


    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Gamgee on Fri Apr 17 22:12:34 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Mon Apr 13 2020 06:55 pm

    I understand your point, and I suspect we won't likely agree much
    on this issue.... But let me ask you this, to see if you think I
    might be right:

    Your "no matter how small" statement is the key. Yes, some folks
    (in the NRA and elsewhere) do get upset at even small changes in
    gun ownership laws. Why? Well, it's quite simple. Everyone
    knows that Americans wouldn't stand for some bold and complete
    revocation of gun ownership rights in this country, done in one
    fell swoop. So, if one's goal is to ACTUALLY accomplish that
    (removing guns from the common citizen), the ONLY way to succeed
    is to do it a very little bit at a time. Kind of like stealing a
    few cents from a rich bank account every day, over the course of years/decades. Nobody will notice such a small thing. But, over
    the course of a generation or two, huge changes can be done, and
    all of a sudden..... It's illegal to own a gun in America. That's
    the method that the anti-gun crowd is using. Don't bother trying
    to deny that, because it's an obvious truth, and everyone on both
    sides knows that. It's the old "slippery slope" scenario. I mean,
    just look at states like California, and how far they've already
    come in their pursuit of this issue. There are MASSIVE restrictions
    in place there RIGHT NOW, that are not present in nearly any other
    state. If allowed to continue, how can the end result be anything
    other than the complete dis-arming of America?

    I get that mindset, but I really disagree with the premise. There are too many laws, and too much is ingraned into our culture for the US to ever ban guns completely. It definitely would take a cultural revolution to do so, and such a revolution would take many genrations to the point that the vast majority of US citizens would want to ban all firearms. At that point, who are we to care? We'll be long dead, or our minds would have been changed and we'll probably be on board with it.

    When I'm talking about "small things" I'm talking about common-sense gun laws that the majority of US citizens support. closing the "gun show loophole" and similar, small, sane things that can help keep firearms out of the hands of those that only want to use them to harm others.

    While I'm quite left leaning, I'm also against an "assault weapons ban". I'd really love to see more data and more studies done to support such a thing, but the NRA has lobbied to get laws passed so such data is not collected or made available, and such studies cannot be funded by the government.


    I say all of that in a logical manner and non-confrontational
    tone. How else can the erosion of rights guaranteed to us by our
    national Constitution be described? It's quite plain and clear
    that that is the goal of (most of) the left-wing political party
    in this country. For those that enjoy the legal use of firearms
    for recreation/competition, how can they just stand idly by and
    watch their rights be taken away? How would you react if some
    group of people wanted to take something away from you that you
    had a right to be doing?

    It may be subjective, but I'm quite left-wing. All my friends are quite left-wing, large portions of my family are left-wing. Most of us own more than one gun, and many of us own "assault weapons". I'm pretty sure that it's the pro-gun, right-wing fearmongers that have people worked up into a tizzy that "every liberal wants to take away your guns".




    DaiTengu

    ... It is a rather pleasant experience to be alone in a bank at night.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to HusTler on Fri Apr 17 22:15:45 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: HusTler to DaiTengu on Mon Apr 13 2020 07:59 pm

    The NRA leadership is so blinded by their raging hard-ons for the
    2nd ammendment that any suggestion that changes gun ownership laws,
    no matter how small, becomes "THEY'RE TAKING AWAY OUR GUNS!"

    I don't hear that from the NRA at all. What I hear is if we let you take away our AK-47 what will you take next? Besides even if a federal Law was passed each State has their own laws. Try and get the Texas or Florida gun owners to give up their guns. They would never let that happen without a gunfight a real gunfight. Would you be willing to be in that fight? Maybe we should take guns away from cops too?

    See, this is the progression that the NRA and their lobbiests has driven into everyone's minds. If you want to close the gun-show loophole and expand background checks, what you really want to do is take away everyone's guns.

    I say this as a bleeding-heart, left-wing "libtard": You can have my AR-15 when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

    And I know all of my left-wing friends and family will be there with me with their guns too.

    DaiTengu

    ... When I die, I'm leaving my body to science fiction.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DAITENGU on Sat Apr 18 14:45:00 2020
    See, this is the progression that the NRA and their lobbiests has driven into e
    veryone's minds. If you want to close the gun-show loophole and expand backgro
    nd checks, what you really want to do is take away everyone's guns.

    The problem is that it is not just the NRA. The politicians who want to close the loopholes (probably not a bad idea) will also come out and say things
    about taking all guns. They are probably just trying to get some folks
    from the ultra-left to vote for them but with that language they leave the
    rest of us no reason to trust them.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Sir! Jem'ha'dar warship approachin-- ^{+Kx NO CARRIER

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Sat Apr 18 16:12:00 2020
    DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Your "no matter how small" statement is the key. Yes, some folks
    (in the NRA and elsewhere) do get upset at even small changes in
    gun ownership laws. Why? Well, it's quite simple. Everyone
    knows that Americans wouldn't stand for some bold and complete
    revocation of gun ownership rights in this country, done in one
    fell swoop. So, if one's goal is to ACTUALLY accomplish that
    (removing guns from the common citizen), the ONLY way to succeed
    is to do it a very little bit at a time. Kind of like stealing a
    few cents from a rich bank account every day, over the course of years/decades. Nobody will notice such a small thing. But, over
    the course of a generation or two, huge changes can be done, and
    all of a sudden..... It's illegal to own a gun in America. That's
    the method that the anti-gun crowd is using. Don't bother trying
    to deny that, because it's an obvious truth, and everyone on both
    sides knows that. It's the old "slippery slope" scenario. I mean,
    just look at states like California, and how far they've already
    come in their pursuit of this issue. There are MASSIVE restrictions
    in place there RIGHT NOW, that are not present in nearly any other
    state. If allowed to continue, how can the end result be anything
    other than the complete dis-arming of America?

    I get that mindset, but I really disagree with the premise.
    There are too many laws, and too much is ingraned into our
    culture for the US to ever ban guns completely. It definitely
    would take a cultural revolution to do so, and such a revolution
    would take many genrations to the point that the vast majority of
    US citizens would want to ban all firearms. At that point, who
    are we to care? We'll be long dead, or our minds would have been
    changed and we'll probably be on board with it.

    There aren't that many laws, and it's just a matter of them being revoked/changed one at a time until the anti-gunners have what
    they want. A perfect example (again) is California - look at how
    restrictive it is compared to a state like maybe TX or FL. All of
    that has happened in *ONE* generation (or less). As for it taking
    multiple generations - how do you feel about "Climate Change"?
    That's a standard lefty issue. If you'll be long dead before that
    will affect you, why do you care about it? The EXACT same logic
    applies to gun control.

    When I'm talking about "small things" I'm talking about
    common-sense gun laws that the majority of US citizens support.
    closing the "gun show loophole" and similar, small, sane things
    that can help keep firearms out of the hands of those that only
    want to use them to harm others.

    That's another lefty myth. I go to gun shows frequently, and
    often buy something. This "loophole" you mention does not exist
    from what I have ever seen. Every single firearm I've ever
    purchased at a gun show required me to show ID, fill out the
    required federal paperwork, and have a background check done (on
    the spot before the sale was completed). Every single time. To
    your point, I'm very much in favor of absolute requirements for
    background checks before any gun sale.

    While I'm quite left leaning, I'm also against an "assault
    weapons ban". I'd really love to see more data and more studies
    done to support such a thing, but the NRA has lobbied to get laws
    passed so such data is not collected or made available, and such
    studies cannot be funded by the government.

    I'm not quite sure what this means, and can't comment on it.

    I say all of that in a logical manner and non-confrontational
    tone. How else can the erosion of rights guaranteed to us by our
    national Constitution be described? It's quite plain and clear
    that that is the goal of (most of) the left-wing political party
    in this country. For those that enjoy the legal use of firearms
    for recreation/competition, how can they just stand idly by and
    watch their rights be taken away? How would you react if some
    group of people wanted to take something away from you that you
    had a right to be doing?

    It may be subjective, but I'm quite left-wing. All my friends
    are quite left-wing, large portions of my family are left-wing.
    Most of us own more than one gun, and many of us own "assault
    weapons". I'm pretty sure that it's the pro-gun, right-wing
    fearmongers that have people worked up into a tizzy that "every
    liberal wants to take away your guns".

    I'd say you and your family/friends are NOT typical of the left
    side then. Not at all. Most people screaming for more gun
    control absolutely think that NO American should have ANY guns,
    for ANY reason.

    The bottom line of this whole topic/debate for me is this: Even
    if guns are completely outlawed, it won't really change anything
    in regard to "gun violence". The criminals who commit gun
    violence will still have guns. There just won't be any "good
    guys" with guns who might be able to stop them. It's an over-used
    analogy, but I think it's true: Heroin/meth/crack are all illegal,
    but are they still available to those who don't care about laws?
    Yes. Guns would be exactly the same way. I'm really not sure how
    people don't get that. Another thing is to look at Chicago -
    probably the WORST gun violence area in the nation, and they have
    the MOST STRICT gun laws in the nation. Hmmmmm.... what does that
    tell us?



    ... Forbidden fruit is responsible for many a bad jam.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT to DaiTengu on Sat Apr 18 15:33:08 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: DaiTengu to HusTler on Fri Apr 17 2020 06:15 pm

    See, this is the progression that the NRA and their lobbiests has driven into everyone's minds. If you want to close the gun-show loophole and expand background checks, what you really want to do is take away everyone's guns.

    I agree there is fearmongering to a certain degree.

    But it is not a gun problem.

    As a Spaniard I have seen the same phenomena unfold on other areas, usually minoritary fields where there is no resistence. They don't take your dog away with one big law.

    First they ban you to walk him around in the park on a leash except on a certain tight timeframe.

    Then they ask you go get an official paper each time you want to deworm or vaccinate the dog.

    Then they demand you to get a dog license for owning the dog at all.

    Then they demand that your dog is held in a cage every moment he is with no supervision.

    None of these messures are equivalent to a ban of dogs, but when you add them all together, anybody who is thinking of buying a dog will think "why bother?" and buy a hamster instead. Which is the reason why many dog breeds have been nearly wiped around here despite not having an official ban. 12 years of small laws will destroy you if left unopposed.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to DaiTengu on Sun Apr 19 16:06:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: DaiTengu to Gamgee on Fri Apr 17 2020 06:12 pm

    I don't think it's every liberal advocating total disarmament. That doesn't meant hey don't exist or not out there looking for opportunities to further their agenda.

    Common sense laws will not truly exist until the politicians and people backin g them recieve an adequate education on firearms and firearms history to creat e truly effective laws without depriving law abiding citizens of their right. "Common sense" has become a buzz word to imply your opponents lack reasoning o r are narrow minded. Behind the words is the concept that the answer is so simple, and we've been overlooking it all this time. It's not a simple solution. I'm not going to pretend I know an answer, however I do know doing something for the sake of taking action without educated forethought makes things worse.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Sun Apr 19 16:20:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Dumas Walker to DAITENGU on Sat Apr 18 2020 10:45 am

    See, this is the progression that the NRA and their lobbiests has driven in >veryone's minds. If you want to close the gun-show loophole and expand bac >nd checks, what you really want to do is take away everyone's guns.

    The problem is that it is not just the NRA. The politicians who want to clo the loopholes (probably not a bad idea) will also come out and say things about taking all guns. They are probably just trying to get some folks
    from the ultra-left to vote for them but with that language they leave the rest of us no reason to trust them.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Sir! Jem'ha'dar warship approachin-- ^{+Kx NO CARRIER


    The "loopholes" they want to eliminate are sales and transfers of firearms
    that are not done through a dealer or not tracked in any way. Gifting or handing down a firearm to a relative is one of these transfers. A face to fac e transaction aka non-dealer to non-dealer sales are non-trackable ,and rely
    on the seller to make the judgement whether to sell a firearm or not. The "gu ns how loophole" is the rpeviously mentioned face to face transfer. I don't need a license or keeps books to sell or recieve a firearm as a private individual.

    I can't see how thy could enforce banning face to face sales. Criminals and the black market perform illegal sales without fear of the law all the time. The only way to enforce it would be through mandatory registration and owner l ists. Gun owners fear this because when the last time US was considering such
    a move, it was the 1930's and we were closely watching how the Germans were d oing their registration programs.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Sun Apr 19 16:26:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Sat Apr 18 2020 12:12 pm

    DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Your "no matter how small" statement is the key. Yes, some folks
    (in the NRA and elsewhere) do get upset at even small changes in
    gun ownership laws. Why? Well, it's quite simple. Everyone
    knows that Americans wouldn't stand for some bold and complete revocation of gun ownership rights in this country, done in one
    fell swoop. So, if one's goal is to ACTUALLY accomplish that
    (removing guns from the common citizen), the ONLY way to succeed
    is to do it a very little bit at a time. Kind of like stealing a
    few cents from a rich bank account every day, over the course of years/decades. Nobody will notice such a small thing. But, over
    the course of a generation or two, huge changes can be done, and
    all of a sudden..... It's illegal to own a gun in America. That's
    the method that the anti-gun crowd is using. Don't bother trying
    to deny that, because it's an obvious truth, and everyone on both
    sides knows that. It's the old "slippery slope" scenario. I mean,
    just look at states like California, and how far they've already
    come in their pursuit of this issue. There are MASSIVE restrictions
    in place there RIGHT NOW, that are not present in nearly any other state. If allowed to continue, how can the end result be anything
    other than the complete dis-arming of America?

    I get that mindset, but I really disagree with the premise.
    There are too many laws, and too much is ingraned into our
    culture for the US to ever ban guns completely. It definitely
    would take a cultural revolution to do so, and such a revolution
    would take many genrations to the point that the vast majority of
    US citizens would want to ban all firearms. At that point, who
    are we to care? We'll be long dead, or our minds would have been changed and we'll probably be on board with it.

    There aren't that many laws, and it's just a matter of them being revoked/changed one at a time until the anti-gunners have what
    they want. A perfect example (again) is California - look at how restrictive it is compared to a state like maybe TX or FL. All of
    that has happened in *ONE* generation (or less). As for it taking
    multiple generations - how do you feel about "Climate Change"?
    That's a standard lefty issue. If you'll be long dead before that
    will affect you, why do you care about it? The EXACT same logic
    applies to gun control.

    When I'm talking about "small things" I'm talking about
    common-sense gun laws that the majority of US citizens support.
    closing the "gun show loophole" and similar, small, sane things
    that can help keep firearms out of the hands of those that only
    want to use them to harm others.

    That's another lefty myth. I go to gun shows frequently, and
    often buy something. This "loophole" you mention does not exist
    from what I have ever seen. Every single firearm I've ever
    purchased at a gun show required me to show ID, fill out the
    required federal paperwork, and have a background check done (on
    the spot before the sale was completed). Every single time. To
    your point, I'm very much in favor of absolute requirements for
    background checks before any gun sale.

    While I'm quite left leaning, I'm also against an "assault
    weapons ban". I'd really love to see more data and more studies
    done to support such a thing, but the NRA has lobbied to get laws passed so such data is not collected or made available, and such studies cannot be funded by the government.

    I'm not quite sure what this means, and can't comment on it.

    I say all of that in a logical manner and non-confrontational
    tone. How else can the erosion of rights guaranteed to us by our national Constitution be described? It's quite plain and clear
    that that is the goal of (most of) the left-wing political party
    in this country. For those that enjoy the legal use of firearms
    for recreation/competition, how can they just stand idly by and
    watch their rights be taken away? How would you react if some
    group of people wanted to take something away from you that you
    had a right to be doing?

    It may be subjective, but I'm quite left-wing. All my friends
    are quite left-wing, large portions of my family are left-wing.
    Most of us own more than one gun, and many of us own "assault
    weapons". I'm pretty sure that it's the pro-gun, right-wing fearmongers that have people worked up into a tizzy that "every
    liberal wants to take away your guns".

    I'd say you and your family/friends are NOT typical of the left
    side then. Not at all. Most people screaming for more gun
    control absolutely think that NO American should have ANY guns,
    for ANY reason.

    The bottom line of this whole topic/debate for me is this: Even
    if guns are completely outlawed, it won't really change anything
    in regard to "gun violence". The criminals who commit gun
    violence will still have guns. There just won't be any "good
    guys" with guns who might be able to stop them. It's an over-used
    analogy, but I think it's true: Heroin/meth/crack are all illegal,
    but are they still available to those who don't care about laws?
    Yes. Guns would be exactly the same way. I'm really not sure how
    people don't get that. Another thing is to look at Chicago -
    probably the WORST gun violence area in the nation, and they have
    the MOST STRICT gun laws in the nation. Hmmmmm.... what does that
    tell us?



    ... Forbidden fruit is responsible for many a bad jam.

    The "loophole" is face to face transfers with other non dealers. Let's a say
    I want to sell a shotgun, and I can sell it for more face to face than to or t hrough a dealer. No paperwork is needed for an FTF. All they suggest is to use good judgment and do not sell to someone that looks unstable or shady.
    FTF transfers happen all the time. It's just easier to hook up at a gun show.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Sun Apr 19 16:42:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Arelor to DaiTengu on Sat Apr 18 2020 11:33 am

    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: DaiTengu to HusTler on Fri Apr 17 2020 06:15 pm

    See, this is the progression that the NRA and their lobbiests has driven into everyone's minds. If you want to close the gun-show loophole and expand background checks, what you really want to do is take away everyon guns.

    I agree there is fearmongering to a certain degree.

    But it is not a gun problem.

    As a Spaniard I have seen the same phenomena unfold on other areas, usually

    First they ban you to walk him around in the park on a leash except on a cer

    Then they ask you go get an official paper each time you want to deworm or v

    Then they demand you to get a dog license for owning the dog at all.

    Then they demand that your dog is held in a cage every moment he is with no

    None of these messures are equivalent to a ban of dogs, but when you add the here despite not having an official ban. 12 years of small laws will destroy


    A similar strategy is to make owning an item such as a dog as difficult as possible. On top of the usual licensing, the government could require mandatory examinations that would include not only medical checks and immunizations, but also health and welfare checksin which they visit your
    home to ensure your dog is living in a safe environment. If you rent out rooms, you may become as liable as an individual regarding the safety of
    guests and passerby because you are the property owner.

    In the case or whittling down gun rights, a good example is California's ban
    of .50BMG rifles. Their fear is this big heavy projectile could damage cars and shoot down planes even though there had never been a crime recorded with the use of one. Only a few own these rifles because they are expensive and ammunition is expensive. Another sign of picking on a minority because
    others are less apt to fight if they themselves are not under attack.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Sun Apr 19 20:39:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    The bottom line of this whole topic/debate for me is this: Even
    if guns are completely outlawed, it won't really change anything
    in regard to "gun violence". The criminals who commit gun
    violence will still have guns. There just won't be any "good
    guys" with guns who might be able to stop them. It's an over-used
    analogy, but I think it's true: Heroin/meth/crack are all illegal,
    but are they still available to those who don't care about laws?
    Yes. Guns would be exactly the same way. I'm really not sure how
    people don't get that. Another thing is to look at Chicago -
    probably the WORST gun violence area in the nation, and they have
    the MOST STRICT gun laws in the nation. Hmmmmm.... what does that
    tell us?

    The "loophole" is face to face transfers with other non dealers.
    Let's a say I want to sell a shotgun, and I can sell it for more
    face to face than to or t hrough a dealer. No paperwork is
    needed for an FTF. All they suggest is to use good judgment and
    do not sell to someone that looks unstable or shady. FTF
    transfers happen all the time. It's just easier to hook up at a
    gun show.

    OK, I get that, and yes it does happen a lot. But let me ask you
    this: Out of 100 FTF sales that might happen in a given county
    over <whatever> period of time... how many were at a gunshow? Of
    course we don't actually know that, but my guess might be 15.
    Maybe 20 at the most? So....... at least 80% of "illegal" gun
    sales are events that cannot be monitored or stopped. What's the
    big point of worrying about such a "loophole"?

    The same scenario exists for multiple other transactions. Cars
    (to avoid sales tax), fireworks, moonshine, etc... We (and the
    government) can't control everything, no matter how hard some
    folks would like to.



    ... Anything good in life is either illegal, immoral, or fattening.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Arelor@VERT to Gamgee on Sun Apr 19 19:47:17 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sun Apr 19 2020 04:39 pm

    The same scenario exists for multiple other transactions. Cars
    (to avoid sales tax), fireworks, moonshine, etc... We (and the
    government) can't control everything, no matter how hard some
    folks would like to.


    Standard government pretense is to have the items registered with a unique identifier, have a database of owners, and verify regularly that the owner has the item. That is the spaniard approach. It really makes it very difficult for a registered weapon to leak out of the system. But it is also a de-facto ban because not much people will go through the paperwork to get it legal - specially in a country such as here, where rules change fast, and your gun may be outlawed tomorrow and taken away from you, or the condition of the licenses changed.

    Heck, you cannot sell a gun in person here. You have to send it to the army office and the buyer goes to the army office to pick it up.

    The standard way of getting a gun in the 60s around here was to ambush a Civil Guard and give him a good pounding, then take his gun. But failing that there are the underground workshops making this stuff. But as far as I know the main sources of illegal weapons in Spain are 1) Policemen 2) Eastern Europe dealers 3) Stashes of civil war weapons that got abandoned and then found. Yes, there is people with civil war grenades and obuses around :-)

    Personally, I am wery of registers, because the government uses them mainly for two things. To tax registered items and to confiscate registered items. You only miss prepaid phones and pre-paid credit cards when you need to do something that needs discrection and you discover those have to be registered. Hard to explain but it is a blackberry to the economy. It is suffocating to have a phone line uniquely linked to you in a country where the pacifier branch of the army has been commanded to quell criticism to the government.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Arelor on Sun Apr 19 23:19:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

    The same scenario exists for multiple other transactions. Cars
    (to avoid sales tax), fireworks, moonshine, etc... We (and the
    government) can't control everything, no matter how hard some
    folks would like to.

    Standard government pretense is to have the items registered with
    a unique identifier, have a database of owners, and verify
    regularly that the owner has the item. That is the spaniard
    approach. It really makes it very difficult for a registered
    weapon to leak out of the system. But it is also a de-facto ban
    because not much people will go through the paperwork to get it
    legal - specially in a country such as here, where rules change
    fast, and your gun may be outlawed tomorrow and taken away from
    you, or the condition of the licenses changed.

    Heck, you cannot sell a gun in person here. You have to send it
    to the army office and the buyer goes to the army office to pick
    it up.

    The standard way of getting a gun in the 60s around here was to
    ambush a Civil Guard and give him a good pounding, then take his
    gun. But failing that there are the underground workshops making
    this stuff. But as far as I know the main sources of illegal
    weapons in Spain are 1) Policemen 2) Eastern Europe dealers 3)
    Stashes of civil war weapons that got abandoned and then found.
    Yes, there is people with civil war grenades and obuses around
    :-)

    Personally, I am wery of registers, because the government uses
    them mainly for two things. To tax registered items and to
    confiscate registered items. You only miss prepaid phones and
    pre-paid credit cards when you need to do something that needs
    discrection and you discover those have to be registered. Hard to
    explain but it is a blackberry to the economy. It is suffocating
    to have a phone line uniquely linked to you in a country where
    the pacifier branch of the army has been commanded to quell
    criticism to the government.

    That's scary stuff.

    A good portion of the USA political world would like to see that
    happen here, if you can believe it.

    The 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution, and a bunch of actual
    patriots will continue to hold that off, indefinitely. I hope.



    ... Post may contain information unsuitable for overly sensitive persons.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Mon Apr 20 05:16:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Arelor to Gamgee on Sun Apr 19 2020 03:47 pm

    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sun Apr 19 2020 04:39 pm

    The same scenario exists for multiple other transactions. Cars
    (to avoid sales tax), fireworks, moonshine, etc... We (and the government) can't control everything, no matter how hard some
    folks would like to.


    Standard government pretense is to have the items registered with a unique i o leak out of the system. But it is also a de-facto ban because not much peo r the condition of the licenses changed.

    Heck, you cannot sell a gun in person here. You have to send it to the army

    The standard way of getting a gun in the 60s around here was to ambush a Civ
    weapons in Spain are 1) Policemen 2) Eastern Europe dealers 3) Stashes of c

    Personally, I am wery of registers, because the government uses them mainly ction and you discover those have to be registered. Hard to explain but it i ism to the government.

    The other day I was listening to an NPR radio news story about conditions in other countires due to COVID-19, and in Vietnam the police monitor social media and pay visits to people who bad mouth the government's safety
    policies. The concept of anonymity sure has it's merits. It reminds me of the
    book 1984 with a mixture of Minority Report. Eventually computers will have the ability to gather enough information about you to build simulations or forcast your behavior and habits.

    Regarding Civil War weapons, firearms made in the early 20th century tend to
    be made well. My main concern in the surplus firearm market is the Spanish rifles that used the CETME round. It is identical to the 7.62x51 NATO round, but runs a reduced powder charge and lower pressure range. Occasionally I
    see FR7 and FR8 rifles showing up at gun shows, and my understanding is the large ring ad small ring Mauser actions will hold up to a full strength NATO round.

    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT to Moondog on Mon Apr 20 18:42:48 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Mon Apr 20 2020 01:16 am

    Eventually computers will
    have the ability to gather enough information about you to build simulations or forcast your behavior and habits.

    Pretty much. This is why I am always advertising things such as Tor and I2p, and niche network services that are less likely to be monitored. In the long run it won't help much because they can just do what the Chinesse do: force you to use trackware or forfeit many necessary services. Plus, they can figure out who you are by watchign who your friends are, and they can do that just by monitoring your friends.

    Regarding Civil War weapons, firearms made in the early 20th century tend to be made well.

    There is a bit of everything. The red side used a lot of italian weapons that were utter crap. Certain machinegun was famous for breaking its firing pin as soon as it was fielded :-)

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Tue Apr 21 17:18:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Mon Apr 20 2020 02:42 pm

    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Moondog to Arelor on Mon Apr 20 2020 01:16 am

    Eventually computers will
    have the ability to gather enough information about you to build simulati or forcast your behavior and habits.

    Pretty much. This is why I am always advertising things such as Tor and I2p, forfeit many necessary services. Plus, they can figure out who you are by wa

    Regarding Civil War weapons, firearms made in the early 20th century tend be made well.

    There is a bit of everything. The red side used a lot of italian weapons tha


    During the late 1990's there were several Destroyer carbines and cases of 9x23mm ammunition for sale as antiques, curios and relics here in the US.
    They were fairly inexpensive, not any more expensive than any other Mauser style action on the surplus market. Back then these old rifles were in an abundance, but nowadays you can pay as much for a new rifle for a surplus
    rifle in good condition.

    Reagrding the Destroyer carbine, I didn't see the utility of a rilfe that
    fires what sums up to be a higher powered pistol cartridge. I also figured
    I'd get confused having ammunition for 9mm corto, 9mm largo, and 9mm parabellum.

    ---
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  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Dumas Walker on Fri Apr 24 15:30:51 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Dumas Walker to DAITENGU on Sat Apr 18 2020 10:45 am

    The problem is that it is not just the NRA. The politicians who want to close the loopholes (probably not a bad idea) will also come out and say things about taking all guns. They are probably just trying to get some folks from the ultra-left to vote for them but with that language they leave the rest of us no reason to trust them.

    That's a big reason Beto lost all his momentum in the democratic primaries. AFAIK, he was the only one to take that bold stance, and he paid for it.

    The big issue is that organizations like the NRA will then claim that EVERY Democrat wants to take away everyone's guns, and the right-wing media will repeat that over and over until everyone is convinced it's the truth.

    Polls show differently.

    DaiTengu

    ... An honest politician is one who, when bought, stays bought.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DAITENGU on Sat Apr 25 01:03:00 2020
    That's a big reason Beto lost all his momentum in the democratic primaries. AFA
    IK, he was the only one to take that bold stance, and he paid for it.

    The big issue is that organizations like the NRA will then claim that EVERY Dem
    crat wants to take away everyone's guns, and the right-wing media will repeat t
    at over and over until everyone is convinced it's the truth.

    I think he was. Joe Biden has never said anything that radical that I know
    of, but Joe did offer Beto a job should he win in the Fall. That makes me trust Joe a lot less than I might have.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "I never met a chocolate I didn't like." --Deanna Troi

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to DaiTengu on Sat Apr 25 04:07:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: DaiTengu to Dumas Walker on Fri Apr 24 2020 11:30 am

    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Dumas Walker to DAITENGU on Sat Apr 18 2020 10:45 am

    The problem is that it is not just the NRA. The politicians who want to close the loopholes (probably not a bad idea) will also come out and sa things about taking all guns. They are probably just trying to get some folks from the ultra-left to vote for them but with that language they leave the rest of us no reason to trust them.

    That's a big reason Beto lost all his momentum in the democratic primaries.

    The big issue is that organizations like the NRA will then claim that EVERY

    Polls show differently.

    DaiTengu

    ... An honest politician is one who, when bought, stays bought.

    I'm an NRA member (life member too) and I don't think every democrat wants to take every gun away. I do feel there's quite a few that want something to be done, but do not look deep enough into why the pro 2A movement is so
    resistant to gun laws. My concern is behind every group that wants to make simple "common sense" there exists a core group bent on full disarmament.

    Beto's "hell yes, we're coming after them all," reply was not the first time
    I heard someone say that. I've seen news clips where the spokesperson says their group seeks simple changes, then one "triggered" member of that group screams out "no we don't. We want them all gone."



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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dumas Walker on Sat Apr 25 13:03:00 2020
    Re: Re: Musicians generate al
    By: Dumas Walker to DAITENGU on Fri Apr 24 2020 09:03 pm

    That's a big reason Beto lost all his momentum in the democratic primaries. >IK, he was the only one to take that bold stance, and he paid for it.

    The big issue is that organizations like the NRA will then claim that EVERY >crat wants to take away everyone's guns, and the right-wing media will repe >at over and over until everyone is convinced it's the truth.

    I think he was. Joe Biden has never said anything that radical that I know of, but Joe did offer Beto a job should he win in the Fall. That makes me trust Joe a lot less than I might have.


    * SLMR 2.1a * "I never met a chocolate I didn't like." --Deanna Troi


    Biden will say what he thinks a group wants to hear at that time, then claim it
    didn't happen the next day. News coverage is much better these days and politicians can't play that cater game so tightly.

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