• Masks made simple

    From Melkor@VERT/STARFRON to All on Wed Sep 16 08:31:43 2020
    Heres a simple explanation on masks.
    If your nakeed and a naked guy pisses on you you get wet.
    If your wearing pants and a naked guy pisses on you your partially protected. If the guy pissing is wearing pants he pisses his pants and you dont get wet. Does everyone understand the reason for masks now?

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Melkor on Wed Sep 16 23:52:00 2020
    Melkor wrote to All <=-

    Heres a simple explanation on masks.
    If your nakeed and a naked guy pisses on you you get wet.
    If your wearing pants and a naked guy pisses on you your partially protected. If the guy pissing is wearing pants he pisses his pants and
    you dont get wet. Does everyone understand the reason for masks now?

    The argument that they aren't 100% effective therefore useless is like arguing that locking your car when you leave it parked in the street is useless because it could still get stolen anyway.


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  • From hollowone@VERT/AMIGAC to Dennisk on Wed Sep 16 18:34:00 2020
    The argument that they aren't 100% effective therefore useless is like arguing that locking your car when you leave it parked in the street is useless because it could still get stolen anyway.

    I'd argue this is accurate. It's more like locking your car doesn't make sense because the lock doesn't work and car can launched by a simple visible button you need to press. Which obviously is not the case unless you break the lock mechanism in the car.

    With masks they don't work because virus goes through bidirectionally anyway and while wearing it you basically keep some other micro-organisms and fungi to be rebreathed and this all can cause different infections while effectively providing you no extra protection against the virus.

    The only effective protection until there is a vacine or other way we gain immunity to it is social distancing and desinfection as this way you block the way to virus to spread.

    The rest is politics and our economic model that just can't allow us all to locked, aside of psychogological effect lock-down causes which just adds extra difficulty to the topics.

    Aside of the right cause of various democratic and non-democratic demonstrations.. this is how this virus is just feed with new bodies to consume.
    [as an example]

    I wear mask only when I'm close to people who are annoyed by the fact that I don't have it and in places where I can get a ticket for it and that's the only motivation I wear it as I don't believe this is helping anybody and actually can hurt more.

    -
    /h1







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  • From IB Joe@VERT/JOESBBS to Melkor on Wed Sep 16 11:02:00 2020
    On 16 Sep 2020, Melkor said the following...

    Heres a simple explanation on masks.
    If your nakeed and a naked guy pisses on you you get wet.
    If your wearing pants and a naked guy pisses on you your partially protected. If the guy pissing is wearing pants he pisses his pants and
    you dont get wet. Does everyone understand the reason for masks now?
    ---

    Hmmmmm, I see your logic.... BUT.... masks may work for your pissing idea... but they don't work for the China virus. The China virus is a small
    organism, small enough to pass through what the public use as facial protection...

    IB Joe
    AKA Joe Schweier
    SysOp of Joe's BBS
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  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to hollowone on Wed Sep 16 20:00:06 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: hollowone to Dennisk on Wed Sep 16 2020 02:34 pm

    The argument that they aren't 100% effective therefore useless is
    like arguing that locking your car when you leave it parked in the
    street is useless because it could still get stolen anyway.

    I'd argue this is accurate. It's more like locking your car doesn't make sense because the lock doesn't work and car can launched by a simple visible button you need to press. Which obviously is not the case unless you break the lock mechanism in the car.

    With masks they don't work because virus goes through bidirectionally anyway and while wearing it you basically keep some other micro-organisms and fungi to be rebreathed and this all can cause different infections while effectively providing you no extra protection against the virus.

    No. You see, The virus doesn't just float around in the air. It needs something to cling to. In this case, it clings to water droplets, expelled from an infected (asymptomatic individuals CAN and DO spread it, contrary to what some people in this echo have said recently) individual. Masks keep the majority of those water droplets from floating freely in the air.

    Also, in the same sentence, you're claiming the virus goes right through, but it keeps other stuff in.
    First, That doesn't matter. there's no evidence that's an issue. Doctors, nurses, construction workers, etc. all wear masks all day, every day, and they've never had issues.

    Second, You're saying a virus can magically pass through, but other viruses/bacteria/molds can't? Make up your mind.


    The only effective protection until there is a vacine or other way we gain immunity to it is social distancing and desinfection as this way you block the way to virus to spread.

    There are dozens, and dozens of peer reviewed scientific studies at this point showing masks are effective at controlling the spread of a viral contagion. No politics involved.

    DaiTengu

    ... Hindsight is an exact science.

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  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to IB Joe on Wed Sep 16 20:02:17 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: IB Joe to Melkor on Wed Sep 16 2020 07:02 am

    Hmmmmm, I see your logic.... BUT.... masks may work for your pissing idea... but they don't work for the China virus. The China virus is a small organism, small enough to pass through what the public use as facial protection...

    It travels on water droplets, which do get stopped by masks.

    Also, the strain of SARS-CoV-2 that has currently killed nearly 200,000 people in the USA, is from Europe.

    DaiTengu

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Melkor on Wed Sep 16 20:48:31 2020
    Re: Masks made simple
    By: Melkor to All on Wed Sep 16 2020 04:31 am

    Heres a simple explanation on masks.
    If your nakeed and a naked guy pisses on you you get wet.
    If your wearing pants and a naked guy pisses on you your partially protected. If the guy pissing is wearing pants he pisses his pants and you dont get wet. Does everyone understand the reason for masks now?


    what if his piss was microscopic and penetrated through the fibers of your clothing entirely? then you would be entirely wet anyways.

    okay now lets say you are walking around with hundreds of people spraying you with microscopic piss, and everything you touch at the store has a chance of having piss on it. you bring your food home home and get piss transmission in your car, then the kitchen table, and you eat the piss when you eat the food. also all your family members touched it and now they are covered in piss to some degree.

    now everyone stinks like piss no matter what they are wearing, and it's a big piss party.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Wed Sep 16 20:49:38 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Melkor on Wed Sep 16 2020 07:52 pm

    Melkor wrote to All <=-

    Heres a simple explanation on masks.
    If your nakeed and a naked guy pisses on you you get wet.
    If your wearing pants and a naked guy pisses on you your partially
    protected. If the guy pissing is wearing pants he pisses his pants
    and you dont get wet. Does everyone understand the reason for masks
    now?

    The argument that they aren't 100% effective therefore useless is like arguing that locking your car when you leave it parked in the street is useless because it could still get stolen anyway.


    well coid is a virus. your argument is not 100% effective and useless.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to hollowone on Wed Sep 16 20:52:11 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: hollowone to Dennisk on Wed Sep 16 2020 02:34 pm

    The only effective protection until there is a vacine or other way we gain immunity to it is social distancing and desinfection as this way you block the way to virus to spread.


    social distancing, disinfecting and just being healthy is the way we gotta do it. we should have done it regardless of a virus.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to IB Joe on Wed Sep 16 20:52:42 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: IB Joe to Melkor on Wed Sep 16 2020 07:02 am


    Hmmmmm, I see your logic.... BUT.... masks may work for your pissing idea... but they don't work for the China virus. The China virus is a small organism, small enough to pass through what the public use as facial protection...



    also look at china. those fuckers always wear masks. it didnt help any of them.
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to hollowone on Thu Sep 17 13:56:00 2020
    hollowone wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The argument that they aren't 100% effective therefore useless is like arguing that locking your car when you leave it parked in the street is useless because it could still get stolen anyway.

    I'd argue this is accurate. It's more like locking your car doesn't
    make sense because the lock doesn't work and car can launched by a
    simple visible button you need to press. Which obviously is not the
    case unless you break the lock mechanism in the car.

    With masks they don't work because virus goes through bidirectionally anyway and while wearing it you basically keep some other
    micro-organisms and fungi to be rebreathed and this all can cause different infections while effectively providing you no extra
    protection against the virus.

    The only effective protection until there is a vacine or other way we
    gain immunity to it is social distancing and desinfection as this way
    you block the way to virus to spread.

    The rest is politics and our economic model that just can't allow us
    all to locked, aside of psychogological effect lock-down causes which
    just adds extra difficulty to the topics.

    Aside of the right cause of various democratic and non-democratic demonstrations.. this is how this virus is just feed with new bodies to consume.
    [as an example]

    I wear mask only when I'm close to people who are annoyed by the fact
    that I don't have it and in places where I can get a ticket for it and that's the only motivation I wear it as I don't believe this is helping anybody and actually can hurt more.

    -
    /h1

    The virus is transmitted mostly through droplets, which can be stopped by the mask. People seem to think the viruses just float through the air all without a transmission medium. That is not the case, they largely are transmitted through a medium, and the mask stops that transmission medium.

    I do have to wear one all day at work, and it is a little annoying I admit.

    Where things have failed in my home state, is focusing on the vulnerable. The virus has torn through old-age homes, where it should have never entered, and quarantining of those with the virus was done ineffectively.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to MRO on Thu Sep 17 13:59:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Melkor on Wed Sep 16 2020 07:52 pm

    Melkor wrote to All <=-

    Heres a simple explanation on masks.
    If your nakeed and a naked guy pisses on you you get wet.
    If your wearing pants and a naked guy pisses on you your partially
    protected. If the guy pissing is wearing pants he pisses his pants
    and you dont get wet. Does everyone understand the reason for masks
    now?

    The argument that they aren't 100% effective therefore useless is like arguing that locking your car when you leave it parked in the street is useless because it could still get stolen anyway.


    well coid is a virus. your argument is not 100% effective and useless.

    If you can block or prevent the droplets, you block the virus. Virii don't just leave the body all on their own and fly through the air all on their own, they are carried by particles and droplets when you talk, cough and sneeze. These droplets can be stopped by a mask, mostly, thereby reducing the probability of transmission.




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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Thu Sep 17 01:38:22 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to IB Joe on Wed Sep 16 2020 04:52 pm

    also look at china. those fuckers always wear masks. it didnt help any of them.

    I think many of them would wear masks due to high levels of air pollution in the big Chinese cities.

    Nightfox

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  • From Static@VERT/SUBCBBS to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 06:46:00 2020
    On 17 Sep 2020, Dennisk said the following...
    If you can block or prevent the droplets, you block the virus. Virii don just leave the body all on their own and fly through the air all on their they are carried by particles and droplets when you talk, cough and sneeze These droplets can be stopped by a mask, mostly, thereby reducing the probability of transmission.

    I don't get what's so difficult to understand about that. The goal of all the preventative measures, including widespread mask-wearing, is to reduce the average number of additional people to whom each infected person spreads the virus to less than 1 so that it runs out of hosts and peters out. Or at the very least keep it under control well enough until an effective vaccine is available. The alternative is to let everyone get it and let herd immunity run it out of hosts, but since the virus is new and the population's resistance is extremely varied that is likely to have devastating consequences. The flu is only considered a "mild" disease today because it ended genetic lines for
    which it wasn't.

    Staying apart is good. Staying apart and also wearing a mask is better, so you don't blast virus-laden spittle beyond that distance or leave behind aerosol clouds any larger than necessary.

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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to MRO on Thu Sep 17 05:35:20 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to IB Joe on Wed Sep 16 2020 04:52 pm

    also look at china. those fuckers always wear masks. it didnt help any of them. ---

    Actually, after the issue was known they contained things better than most western countries once you account for the ~2 week lag this thing has between exposure and symptom manifestation. Don't get me wrong, the death toll numbers they released for Wuhan are a complete fabrication, but the combination of masking and absolute draconian lockdown did seem to work for them.
    ---
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Static on Fri Sep 18 01:19:00 2020
    Static wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 17 Sep 2020, Dennisk said the following...
    If you can block or prevent the droplets, you block the virus. Virii don just leave the body all on their own and fly through the air all on their they are carried by particles and droplets when you talk, cough and sneeze These droplets can be stopped by a mask, mostly, thereby reducing the probability of transmission.

    I don't get what's so difficult to understand about that. The goal of
    all the preventative measures, including widespread mask-wearing, is to reduce the average number of additional people to whom each infected person spreads the virus to less than 1 so that it runs out of hosts
    and peters out. Or at the very least keep it under control well enough until an effective vaccine is available. The alternative is to let everyone get it and let herd immunity run it out of hosts, but since
    the virus is new and the population's resistance is extremely varied
    that is likely to have devastating consequences. The flu is only considered a "mild" disease today because it ended genetic lines for
    which it wasn't.

    Staying apart is good. Staying apart and also wearing a mask is better,
    so you don't blast virus-laden spittle beyond that distance or leave behind aerosol clouds any larger than necessary.

    I do get the arguments against making it compulsory. I'm not fond of the idea of enforcing this with fines. If you want to catch the virus, then do so. If the supermarket doesn't want you entering without a mask, that is their right, and if you want to distance yourself, so be it. Personal responsibility and all that.

    But if I can avoid catching it, I damn well will.

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  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 13:55:01 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to hollowone on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:56 am

    through a medium, and the mask stops that transmission medium.

    I do have to wear one all day at work, and it is a little annoying I admit.

    Where things have failed in my home state, is focusing on the vulnerable. Th virus has torn through old-age homes, where it should have never entered, an quarantining of those with the virus was done ineffectively.

    So many elders died in a local nursing home on Long Island the facility was able to shut down an entire floor (46 beds). The State will not allow any new residents until they get their shit together. It's too little too late. These people didn't have to die. Covid is preventable by wearing masks and keeping 6 feet away from the "cockroaches" in the world and on Dovenet/Fsxnet that don't wear masks. That's right Cockroaches like ones on Dovenet killing their moms cause their too stupid and ignorant.

    ... Be an individualist. He who follows another is always behind.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DAITENGU on Thu Sep 17 15:34:00 2020
    Also, in the same sentence, you're claiming the virus goes right through, but
    keeps other stuff in.
    First, That doesn't matter. there's no evidence that's an issue. Doctors, nurs
    , construction workers, etc. all wear masks all day, every day, and they've ne
    r had issues.

    Second, You're saying a virus can magically pass through, but other viruses/ba
    eria/molds can't? Make up your mind.

    But those folks may have access to better masks than we do. I have heard
    more than once that the masks that most folks use do let some droplets
    through, regardless of what might be contained in them. They have also
    said that getting a small dose of this virus might be harmless, so wearing masks that stop MOST of the droplets are a good thing. Nothing is perfect,
    but they are a good thing that works best when everyone is wearing one.


    * SLMR 2.1a * We are all related...relatively speaking

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DAITENGU on Thu Sep 17 15:35:00 2020
    Also, the strain of SARS-CoV-2 that has currently killed nearly 200,000 people >in the USA, is from Europe.

    From China via Europe.


    * SLMR 2.1a * It's a state of mind.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Thu Sep 17 15:42:00 2020
    also look at china. those fuckers always wear masks. it didnt help any of the

    I am not sure that China does it any more than Americans do. Now, the
    South Koreans and the Japanese do and it apparently did help them. Being mostly insular also helped them, as it helped New Zealand and, to some
    extent, Australia.

    With folks in the US fighting against tighening the long borders we have
    with other countries, and fighting against travel bans early on, we were sitting ducks compared to those countries.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Final scores: Deep Space 9, Babylon 5, Earth 2.

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  • From nolageek@VERT/CAPSHRIL to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 15:53:38 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Static on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:19 pm

    I do get the arguments against making it compulsory. I'm not fond of the idea of enforcing this with fines. If you want to catch the virus, then do so. If the supermarket doesn't want you entering without a mask, that is

    Except this is where your selfishness comes into play. Masks ARE NOT about preventing you from catching it. It is about preventing YOU from spreading it. People who wear masks are not protecting themselves, they are protecting YOU.

    |01-|03nolageek

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  • From nolageek@VERT/CAPSHRIL to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 16:03:00 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Static on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:19 pm

    I do get the arguments against making it compulsory. I'm not fond of the idea of enforcing this with fines. If you want to catch the virus, then do so. If the supermarket doesn't want you entering without a mask, that is

    Except this is where individual selfishness comes into play. Masks ARE NOT about preventing you from catching it. It is about preventing YOU from spreading it. People who wear masks are not protecting themselves, they are protecting YOU.

    nolageek

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to HusTler on Fri Sep 18 12:43:00 2020
    HusTler wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to hollowone on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:56 am

    through a medium, and the mask stops that transmission medium.

    I do have to wear one all day at work, and it is a little annoying I admit.

    Where things have failed in my home state, is focusing on the vulnerable. Th virus has torn through old-age homes, where it should have never entered, an quarantining of those with the virus was done ineffectively.

    So many elders died in a local nursing home on Long Island the
    facility was able to shut down an entire floor (46 beds). The State
    will not allow any new residents until they get their shit together.
    It's too little too late. These people didn't have to die. Covid is preventable by wearing masks and keeping 6 feet away from the "cockroaches" in the world and on Dovenet/Fsxnet that don't wear masks. That's right Cockroaches like ones on Dovenet killing their moms cause their too stupid and ignorant.

    ... Be an individualist. He who follows another is always behind.

    In some cases here, the homes had staff moving from one site to another! It annoys me that the police will crack your head open for sitting on a bench, but where they are NEEDED, they are not there.

    We had positive cases quarantined in a hotel, and just left it to contracted security guard to contain the virus. The same government which is stamping on our freedom, which is considering making TALK of organising a protest illegal, refused help from the Army to enforce quarantine of positive cases,.

    Yet Melbournians think our government is doing a great job. Jesus wept...

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to nolageek on Fri Sep 18 12:46:00 2020
    nolageek wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Static on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:19 pm

    I do get the arguments against making it compulsory. I'm not fond of the idea of enforcing this with fines. If you want to catch the virus, then do so. If the supermarket doesn't want you entering without a mask, that is

    Except this is where your selfishness comes into play. Masks ARE NOT
    about preventing you from catching it. It is about preventing YOU from spreading it. People who wear masks are not protecting themselves, they are protecting YOU.

    Until you see people with masks, handling all the groceries at the supermarket, putting them back.

    I do not have the virus, my first thought in putting on the mask is 1) I HAVE to wear it, or I will be fined or have my head stomped on by Victorian police, 2) Some doofus may be deciding to go out even if they aren't 100% and I have to stand behind them at the supermarket and lastly 3), for the wellbeing of others.

    I consider other people a greater risk to me, than I am to them.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 22:14:02 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to hollowone on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:56 am

    The virus is transmitted mostly through droplets, which can be stopped by the mask. People seem to think the viruses just float through the air all without a transmission medium. That is not the case, they largely are transmitted through a medium, and the mask stops that transmission medium.


    that's not what they were saying before. they said they had people in hospital rooms sealed up tight and outside they were detecting corona virus. they said it was being spread through footprints.

    then they said it can be spread through farts.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 22:14:29 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:59 am

    If you can block or prevent the droplets, you block the virus. Virii don't


    if monkeys flew out of my butt we would all have a merry christmas.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Thu Sep 17 22:17:16 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Wed Sep 16 2020 09:38 pm

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to IB Joe on Wed Sep 16 2020 04:52 pm

    also look at china. those fuckers always wear masks. it didnt help
    any of them.

    I think many of them would wear masks due to high levels of air pollution in the big Chinese cities.

    Nightfox


    no , they are afraid of getting sick. it's part of their culture.
    they even drink hot water and liquids all the time because they think
    it's good for the body.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Static on Thu Sep 17 22:19:55 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Static to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 2020 02:46 am

    I don't get what's so difficult to understand about that. The goal of all the preventative measures, including widespread mask-wearing, is to reduce the average number of additional people to whom each infected person spreads the virus to less than 1 so that it runs out of hosts and peters


    because we dont understand it like we claim to. and if this mask shit works so good why havent we been wearing masks all the time for the past 50 years?
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to HusTler on Thu Sep 17 22:24:50 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:55 am

    was able to shut down an entire floor (46 beds). The State will not allow any new residents until they get their shit together. It's too little too late. These people didn't have to die. Covid is preventable by wearing masks and keeping 6 feet away from the "cockroaches" in the world and on Dovenet/Fsxnet that don't wear masks. That's right Cockroaches like ones on Dovenet killing their moms cause their too stupid and ignorant.



    YOU'RE NEXT MOTHERFUCKER. I'M COMING FOR YOU WITH MY COVID AND AIDS
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to nolageek on Thu Sep 17 22:30:32 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: nolageek to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 2020 11:53 am

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Static on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:19 pm

    I do get the arguments against making it compulsory. I'm not fond of
    the idea of enforcing this with fines. If you want to catch the
    virus, then do so. If the supermarket doesn't want you entering
    without a mask, that is

    Except this is where your selfishness comes into play. Masks ARE NOT about preventing you from catching it. It is about preventing YOU from spreading it. People who wear masks are not protecting themselves, they are protecting YOU.



    that talk about selfishness and protecting others is just mind control
    to get people to wear them. we should be focusing more on things that really work like separating and washing our hands.
    ---
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  • From Lupine Furmen@VERT/FURFOL to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 19:32:10 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Melkor on Wed Sep 16 2020 19:52:00

    Heres a simple explanation on masks.
    If your nakeed and a naked guy pisses on you you get wet.
    If your wearing pants and a naked guy pisses on you your partially
    protected. If the guy pissing is wearing pants he pisses his pants
    and you dont get wet. Does everyone understand the reason for masks
    now?

    The argument that they aren't 100% effective therefore useless is like arguing that locking your car when you leave it parked in the street is useless because it could still get stolen anyway.

    Or the fact that condomes are not 100% effective, but some folks still use them.

    Lupine Furmen
    -Dallas Vinson
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    Dallas

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 22:42:19 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to nolageek on Fri Sep 18 2020 08:46 am

    nolageek wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Static on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:19 pm

    I do get the arguments against making it compulsory. I'm not fond of
    the idea of enforcing this with fines. If you want to catch the
    virus, then do so. If the supermarket doesn't want you entering
    without a mask, that is

    Except this is where your selfishness comes into play. Masks ARE NOT
    about preventing you from catching it. It is about preventing YOU
    from spreading it. People who wear masks are not protecting
    themselves, they
    are protecting YOU.

    Until you see people with masks, handling all the groceries at the supermarket, putting them back.

    I do not have the virus, my first thought in putting on the mask is 1) I HAVE to wear it, or I will be fined or have my head stomped on by Victorian police, 2) Some doofus may be deciding to go out even if they aren't 100% and I have to stand behind them at the supermarket and lastly 3), for the wellbeing of others.

    I consider other people a greater risk to me, than

    i noticed that with this mask bullshit i'm touching my face and my eyes 100x more. the people i talk to are doing it more too. and we're constantly adjusting our masks and pulling them down to breathe so we dont fog up or safety glasses or so we can just hear eachother talk.

    it's almost like not wearing a mask in this situation would be better than wearing one!

    furthermore, people have a mask on and they think they dont have to social distance anymore or as much. yes you do have to social distance.
    ---
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 22:43:06 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Static on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:19 pm

    I do get the arguments against making it compulsory. I'm not fond of the idea of enforcing this with fines. If you want to catch the virus, then do so. If the supermarket doesn't want you entering without a mask, that is

    If masks worked to protect the individual wearing them, then yes it would be a no brianer. The libertarian in me hates mandating things like this, but given the circumstances it's pretty much required to mandate them as the numbers I've seen indicate that it only takes 1 person in 5 not following procedures to keep the R number in growth territory.
    ---
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to MRO on Thu Sep 17 23:03:14 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 2020 06:42 pm

    furthermore, people have a mask on and they think they dont have to social distance anymore or as much. yes you do have to social distance. ---

    That's.... actually a valid concern. However I didn't like people getting in my bubble well before COVID, yet some determined ignorant assholes still manage to do so, and since they have to be pretty god damned ignorant to manage to get in my bubble, I'd much prefer them to be masked as I know for a fact they can't have been managing to distance themselves previous to that moment in time.
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Underminer on Fri Sep 18 01:24:40 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Underminer to Dennisk on Thu Sep 17 2020 06:43 pm

    be a no brianer. The libertarian in me hates mandating things like this, but given the circumstances it's pretty much required to mandate them as the numbers I've seen indicate that it only takes 1 person in 5 not following procedures to keep the R number in growth territory.


    if it just takes 1 person out of 5 to keep it going, then it will keep on going forever. time to get used to it because it's not going away.
    ---
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  • From nolageek@VERT/CAPSHRIL to Dennisk on Fri Sep 18 03:44:19 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to nolageek on Fri Sep 18 2020 08:46 am

    Until you see people with masks, handling all the groceries at the supermarket, putting them back.

    Except the virus doesn't spread that way as much as it does from droplets in your breath/other fluids from your mouth and nose.

    I do not have the virus, my first thought in putting on the mask is 1) I HAVE to wear it, or I will be fined or have my head stomped on by Victorian police, 2) Some doofus may be deciding to go out even if they aren't 100% and I have to stand behind them at the supermarket and lastly 3), for the wellbeing of others.
    I consider other people a greater risk to me, than I am to them.

    Again, all those point to selfishness. I wear a mask not because I think I'm sick, but because I try to project a positive example for others. I can't expect otehrs to do somethI won't do. I've lost a close friend, some friends of friends, and a friend of mine lost both his parents a couple of months ago - all due to the virus or complications from the virus. But by all means, I hope you're not inconvenienced.

    |01-|03nolageek

    ---
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  • From Static@VERT/SUBCBBS to MRO on Fri Sep 18 07:13:00 2020
    On 17 Sep 2020, MRO said the following...
    because we dont understand it like we claim to.

    It's a respiratory virus. We've got the physical behaviour of their trans- mission pretty well figured out at this point and what strain of RNA is inside the capsid isn't going to change that. It's been downright shocking to hear supposed experts tell the public that there's no airborne transmission, or
    that asymptomatic people don't spread it.

    If you have a replicating virus in your respiratory tract, you are shedding viruses with every breath. They can't choose not to be in the air you're exhaling.

    Symptoms like coughing or sneezing release them in big bursts but even
    without symptoms you're still spraying clouds of fluid droplets full of them everywhere every time you exhale or speak. If you need an object lesson you need only hold your hand up to your face and exhale into it. Feel that moisture? Guess what's hitching a ride in that. And it's not like those droplets are uniform in size. The larger, heavier ones quickly fall to the ground which is what you're avoiding with physical distancing and sanitizing the surfaces they land on. Smaller lighter droplets can hang in the air for a long time, or if they're small enough they evaporate mid-air and leave the
    bare virus particles to float around on the air currents freely in which case they could linger for hours before degrading from exposure. This is what gets people sick even if they were trying to keep their distance when they mingle with infected people in poorly ventilated closed spaces.

    Infected people have their highest virus loads and are at their most
    contagious shortly before they become symptomatic. The virus has been replicating unchecked while their immune system hasn't yet kicked into gear
    and started murdering every virus and infected cell it can identify. Asymptomatic carriers are in this stage for even longer while their immune systems mount a weak response.

    Wearing a mask traps a lot of what you exhale, which means less virus being
    set loose to find new victims. They're not perfect, but they don't need to be to help, and unless you've got a sealed hazmat suit handy not much is.

    and if this mask shit works so good why havent we been wearing masks all the time for the past 50 years?

    Now there's a self-fulfilling prophecy right there.

    We haven't had an airborne pandemic with this combination of virulence and lethality in over a hundred years. Mask-wearing was railed against and circumvented then too, and their quality much worse than what's available today. I assume you're familiar enough with history to know it didn't end
    well.

    You could have chosen to wear one anytime you had a cold, and it would likely have reduced the number of people you transmitted your diseases to, but you chose not to. Fortunately for those people the common cold isn't very dangerous.

    That said, mask-wearing to protect the people around you when you're sick is and has been commonplace in many cultures, just not yours.

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to nolageek on Sat Sep 19 00:12:00 2020
    On 09-17-20 23:44, nolageek wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Again, all those point to selfishness. I wear a mask not because I
    think I'm sick, but because I try to project a positive example for others. I can't expect otehrs to do somethI won't do. I've lost a close friend, some friends of friends, and a friend of mine lost both his parents a couple of months ago - all due to the virus or complications from the virus. But by all means, I hope you're not inconvenienced.

    Yes, a mask is more about protecting others. I started wearing them sometime before they became mandatory, as the evidence of their contribution to reducing pread mounted. Combined with the high probability of being infectious while asymptomatic, and it was a no brainer.

    Yes, masks are annoying at times, but so be it.


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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to MRO on Sat Sep 19 01:02:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to nolageek on Fri Sep 18 2020 08:46 am

    nolageek wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Static on Thu Sep 17 2020 09:19 pm

    I do get the arguments against making it compulsory. I'm not fond of
    the idea of enforcing this with fines. If you want to catch the
    virus, then do so. If the supermarket doesn't want you entering
    without a mask, that is

    Except this is where your selfishness comes into play. Masks ARE NOT
    about preventing you from catching it. It is about preventing YOU
    from spreading it. People who wear masks are not protecting
    themselves, they
    are protecting YOU.

    Until you see people with masks, handling all the groceries at the supermarket, putting them back.

    I do not have the virus, my first thought in putting on the mask is 1) I HAVE to wear it, or I will be fined or have my head stomped on by Victorian police, 2) Some doofus may be deciding to go out even if they aren't 100% and I have to stand behind them at the supermarket and lastly 3), for the wellbeing of others.

    I consider other people a greater risk to me, than

    i noticed that with this mask bullshit i'm touching my face and my eyes 100x more. the people i talk to are doing it more too. and we're constantly adjusting our masks and pulling them down to breathe so we
    dont fog up or safety glasses or so we can just hear eachother talk.

    it's almost like not wearing a mask in this situation would be better
    than wearing one!

    furthermore, people have a mask on and they think they dont have to
    social distance anymore or as much. yes you do have to social
    distance. ---

    That is a problem with the masks, especially where I'm working, where people are working it in an environment where goods are produced.


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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to nolageek on Sat Sep 19 01:05:00 2020
    nolageek wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to nolageek on Fri Sep 18 2020 08:46 am

    Until you see people with masks, handling all the groceries at the supermarket, putting them back.

    Except the virus doesn't spread that way as much as it does from
    droplets in your breath/other fluids from your mouth and nose.

    I do not have the virus, my first thought in putting on the mask is 1) I HAVE to wear it, or I will be fined or have my head stomped on by Victorian police, 2) Some doofus may be deciding to go out even if they aren't 100% and I have to stand behind them at the supermarket and lastly 3), for the wellbeing of others.
    I consider other people a greater risk to me, than I am to them.

    Again, all those point to selfishness. I wear a mask not because I
    think I'm sick, but because I try to project a positive example for others. I can't expect otehrs to do somethI won't do. I've lost a close friend, some friends of friends, and a friend of mine lost both his parents a couple of months ago - all due to the virus or complications from the virus. But by all means, I hope you're not inconvenienced.

    I'm sorry to hear about your loss. There are fewer cases here in Victoria, and outbreaks are often due to people just being dumb, holding gatherings, etc. I see people in close proximity to each other without masks in the streets. These are the people who pose the most threat. How can I be sure that person that walks past me didn't have a private party? I don't know, but people aren't following the guidelines.


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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to MRO on Fri Sep 18 18:21:15 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Thu Sep 17 2020 06:17 pm

    no , they are afraid of getting sick. it's part of their culture.
    they even drink hot water and liquids all the time because they think
    it's good for the body.

    Is that why the alternative medicine market, which is pure quackery, is so popular in China? I think they're responsible for much of the poaching of rare wild animals in Asia and Africa. They always seem to be intertested in rhino horns and elephant tusks, snakes, tiger paws, etc... for "medicinal" purposes. Someone should really clamp down in this sort of crap.

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Fri Sep 18 12:24:39 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to Static on Thu Sep 17 2020 06:19 pm

    because we dont understand it like we claim to. and if this mask shit works so good why havent we been wearing masks all the time for the past 50 years?

    As bad as they make covid out to be, I'd think this is just a temporary measure for the worst diseases. At least that's how they make it sound.. Businesses have also been shut down or limited in what they can do (some fast food places have been limited to drive-thru only, etc.).

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Fri Sep 18 12:28:07 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to nolageek on Thu Sep 17 2020 06:30 pm

    that talk about selfishness and protecting others is just mind control
    to get people to wear them. we should be focusing more on things that really work like separating and washing our hands.

    Washing hands is something people should already be doing. But sadly (and this was mentioned in another thread not too long ago), there are adults who don't wash their hands after using the bathroom..

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Stormy@VERT/FINALZON to Dennisk on Fri Sep 18 13:12:48 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to nolageek on Fri Sep 18 2020 09:05 pm

    I see people in close proximity to each other without masks in the
    streets. These are the people who pose the most threat. How can I be sure that person that walks past me didn't have a private party? I don't know, but people aren't following the guidelines.

    I don't really know what to believe about COVID-19. I keep seeing conflicting information. Some say that it is no worse than the flu (or at least similar to it) while other say that it is significantly worse. Either way, people probably should take precautions (such as wearing a mask and social distancing) when it is this widespread.

    On that note, it should be obvious even under normal circumstances that you should stay home from work or school if you are sick to prevent spreading whatever it is that you might have to co-workers, schoolmates, and/or friends. Unfortunately this world seems to have developed a culture of going out even if it means potentially spreading something infectious to other people.

    This world is a mess, and I feel for those who have lost friends and family members to the pandemic.

    ---
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  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Underminer on Fri Sep 18 13:09:15 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Underminer to MRO on Thu Sep 17 2020 07:03 pm

    That's.... actually a valid concern. However I didn't like people getting in bubble well before COVID, yet some determined ignorant assholes still manage do so, and since they have to be pretty god damned ignorant to manage to get my bubble, I'd much prefer them to be masked as I know for a fact they can't have been managing to distance themselves previous to that moment in time. -

    I think the problem more about peoples attitudes towards others. People wear the mask if they think the mask is preventing themselves from getting sick. Wearing a mask has nothing to do with that. Wearing a mask helps the spread of your snot to other people. This is where bad attitudes come in. People don't care about others. They only care about themselves. They are not concerned about giving their bacteria to others. They cry "You can't make me where a mask" No we can't, but I would feel better socializing with you if you did wear one. "Well I don't give a shit if I make you sick" or "I'm not sick so don't worry about me". This is the stupidity and ignorance our society is dealing with. Wearing a mask is being considerate towards others. It's the same as covering your mouth when you cough or sneeze. Many people don't even do that! BTW I'm selling baseball caps that say "Get sick! I don't wear a mask".

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Stormy on Fri Sep 18 15:26:30 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Stormy to Dennisk on Fri Sep 18 2020 09:12 am

    On that note, it should be obvious even under normal circumstances that you should stay home from work or school if you are sick to prevent spreading whatever it is that you might have to co-workers, schoolmates, and/or friends. Unfortunately this world seems to have developed a culture of going out even if it means potentially spreading something infectious to other people.

    Yeah, there seems to be this mentality that you're a trooper if you go to work sick.... No you aren't, you're reducing productivity both by elongating your likely sick period, and passing it off to coworkers who will likewise have their productivity curbed by getting ill.
    ---
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to HusTler on Fri Sep 18 15:29:38 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to Underminer on Fri Sep 18 2020 09:09 am

    I think the problem more about peoples attitudes towards others. People wear the mask if they think the mask is preventing themselves from getting sick. Wearing a mask has nothing to do with that. Wearing a mask helps the

    Pretty much. The kicker is that if the masks were about individual safety then while it would improve the adoption, it would simultaneously make non compliance far less of an issue. C'est la vie, I suppose.
    ---
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    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Stormy on Sat Sep 19 16:31:00 2020
    Stormy wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to nolageek on Fri Sep 18 2020 09:05 pm

    I see people in close proximity to each other without masks in the
    streets. These are the people who pose the most threat. How can I be sure that person that walks past me didn't have a private party? I don't know, but people aren't following the guidelines.

    I don't really know what to believe about COVID-19. I keep seeing conflicting information. Some say that it is no worse than the flu (or
    at least similar to it) while other say that it is significantly worse. Either way, people probably should take precautions (such as wearing a mask and social distancing) when it is this widespread.

    On that note, it should be obvious even under normal circumstances that you should stay home from work or school if you are sick to prevent spreading whatever it is that you might have to co-workers,
    schoolmates, and/or friends. Unfortunately this world seems to have developed a culture of going out even if it means potentially spreading something infectious to other people.

    This world is a mess, and I feel for those who have lost friends and family members to the pandemic.

    It's hard to work out because the media will make points which draw the most attention, so keeping a perspective is difficult. For example, they talk of long lasting effects, but with millions affected, it isn't hard to find outliers. I remember having a bad cough that lasted about a month, just because I came back from a long OS trip.

    That is what is difficult, having the right perspective and proportion.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to nolageek on Sat Sep 19 01:59:27 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to Underminer on Fri Sep 18 2020 09:09 am

    I think the problem more about peoples attitudes towards others. People wear the mask if they think the mask is preventing themselves from getting sick. Wearing a mask has nothing to do with that. Wearing a mask helps the spread of your snot to other people. This is where bad attitudes come in. People don't care about others. They only care about themselves. They are not concerned about giving their bacteria to others. They cry "You can't make me where a mask" No we can't, but I would feel better socializing with you if you did wear one. "Well I don't give a shit if I make you


    so we were just hosing eachother down with snot and fluids before this?

    cant we just drop the mask bullshit and we'll keep the social distancing?
    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Underminer on Sat Sep 19 02:23:15 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Underminer to Stormy on Fri Sep 18 2020 11:26 am

    Yeah, there seems to be this mentality that you're a trooper if you go to work sick.... No you aren't, you're reducing productivity both by elongating your likely sick period, and passing it off to coworkers who will likewise have their productivity curbed by getting ill.


    well there's people that abuse things. so that's why you have to use paid time off vacation time when you are sick. so people want to keep that vacation time so they go in sick. i've done it.
    but, i also dont cough all over people and i cover my mouth. my coworkers dont do that. they are disgusting pigs.
    ---
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Underminer on Fri Sep 18 20:26:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Stormy <=-

    Yeah, there seems to be this mentality that you're a trooper if you go
    to work sick.... No you aren't, you're reducing productivity both by elongating your likely sick period, and passing it off to coworkers who will likewise have their productivity curbed by getting ill.

    The "hero" mentality, thankfully, seems to have died away in my
    circles. Back in the first bubble there was quite a bit of that. Now,
    with greater acceptance of working from home and having the ability
    to do so effectively, it's changed - and this was pre-Covid.



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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to MRO on Sat Sep 19 07:15:46 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to nolageek on Fri Sep 18 2020 09:59 pm

    so we were just hosing eachother down with snot and fluids before this?

    In a manner of speaking: far more than you might think we were, yes.
    ---
    Underminer - The Undermine BBS
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun Sep 20 00:05:00 2020
    On 09-18-20 21:05, Dennisk wrote to nolageek <=-

    I'm sorry to hear about your loss. There are fewer cases here in Victoria, and outbreaks are often due to people just being dumb,
    holding gatherings, etc. I see people in close proximity to each other without masks in the streets. These are the people who pose the most threat. How can I be sure that person that walks past me didn't have a private party? I don't know, but people aren't following the
    guidelines.

    Sadly, that's the big city for you. Out here in regional Vic, people did do a good job of following the rules, and the stats say the rest. Currently only one active case in Greater Bendigo, and it's in an out of town postcode too.

    I just hope (but am not holding my breath) that people down there start to realise that the quickest way out of this is to follow the rules and don't try to circumvent the system.

    Actually it took me 2 days to actually take advantage of the eased restrictions here, which happened when I attended track training today with a small squad. Everything else could have been legally done under Stage 3 restrictions.


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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Sun Sep 20 01:50:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 09-18-20 21:05, Dennisk wrote to nolageek <=-

    I'm sorry to hear about your loss. There are fewer cases here in Victoria, and outbreaks are often due to people just being dumb,
    holding gatherings, etc. I see people in close proximity to each other without masks in the streets. These are the people who pose the most threat. How can I be sure that person that walks past me didn't have a private party? I don't know, but people aren't following the
    guidelines.

    Sadly, that's the big city for you. Out here in regional Vic, people
    did do a good job of following the rules, and the stats say the rest. Currently only one active case in Greater Bendigo, and it's in an out
    of town postcode too.

    I just hope (but am not holding my breath) that people down there start
    to realise that the quickest way out of this is to follow the rules and don't try to circumvent the system.

    Actually it took me 2 days to actually take advantage of the eased restrictions here, which happened when I attended track training today with a small squad. Everything else could have been legally done under Stage 3 restrictions.

    If the realisation hasn't happened by now, it won't have. Nor should we make any plans which assume people will.

    With 6 million people, a small proportion won't care, and a small proportion of 6 million is still a lot of people.

    But I'm not happy with the way people think that blanket restrictions are working. Victoria is a good example of the failure of the "precautionary" approach. I prefer risk management, which we are NOT doing. We are just doing what it takes to try and eliminate risk completely, instead of managing it.

    This is why I think we failed the elderly, and failed quarantine. We tried TOO HARD, and paradoxically, being too cautious can lead to worse results.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Underminer on Sat Sep 19 14:17:22 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Underminer to MRO on Sat Sep 19 2020 03:15 am

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to nolageek on Fri Sep 18 2020 09:59 pm

    so we were just hosing eachother down with snot and fluids before
    this?

    In a manner of speaking: far more than you might think we were, yes.

    that's not my personal experience.

    either way, i dont care. i want things to go back to how they were before.
    the economy is shit and i'm going to be have to leave my failing company probably. everything is canceled, things are closed, places are going out of business left and right. we can't have fun anymore and that's important.

    this is no way to live. if this is the new normal i want no part of it.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Dennisk on Sat Sep 19 14:03:40 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Stormy on Sat Sep 19 2020 12:31 pm

    I see people in close proximity to each other without masks in the streets. These are the people who pose the most threat. How can I be

    I don't really know what to believe about COVID-19. I keep seeing conflicting information. Some say that it is no worse than the flu (or

    It's hard to work out because the media will make points which draw the most attention, so keeping a perspective is difficult. For example, they talk of

    I don't understand how anyone can have trouble with these common sense suggestions. (6 feet, wear a mask) If you want to avoid getting another persons germs don't go near them. It's very simple. We as Humans have known this for hundreds of year. COVID is not the worlds first empidemic. If I'm on line at the grocery store and someone without a mask gets too close to me I'll ask them."Excuse me sir/miss can you please step back? "I don't want any germs you may have". If they refuse, then there's going to be a "scene". I WILL get loud. It's my God given right to protect myself from your diseased ugly face. One lady said to me why are you so upset sir? You have a mask on. This is the stupidiy and ignorance of some people. If you don't want to wear a mask that's fine. Just stay the fuck away from ME!

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From hollowone@VERT/AMIGAC to DaiTengu on Sun Sep 20 00:47:00 2020
    (...)

    Second, You're saying a virus can magically pass through, but other viruses/bacteria/molds can't? Make up your mind.

    The only effective protection until there is a vacine or other way we gain immunity to it is social distancing and desinfection as this way you block the way to virus to spread.

    There are dozens, and dozens of peer reviewed scientific studies at
    this point showing masks are effective at controlling the spread of a viral contagion. No politics involved.

    DaiTengu

    Perhaps I started commenting with too many shortcuts to find the right argument in my mind.

    First, I did not mean to offend. I do wear a mask when in public and can't isolate myself from people, even though I don't believe it is helping anybody as much as self-isolating more and sanitization and waiting for the final solution which is either vaccine or herd immunity which is slowly becoming a truth in countries smaller than US and with much better and equal social support including public healthcare services.

    There comes another fact that makes my thinking different:
    - I don't live in US, numbers in my country are different.
    - We've been through complete lock down since March till June.
    - Still we have another peak and restrictions, but I'd rather say it's not that we're on any path to dominate world attention related to the virus
    Which makes me pitty to observe the numbers in US being in the same league as Brazil and India that has completely different level of development, luckily it's not my case.

    I mean no offence to your opinions. I do although think I'd not like to live in a country that offers me a hospital bed for 80k a day only to sleep there and then to feel pitty that I survived and luckily this time for my curation country paid 1.5M dollars (which is the case from Seattle I've read). Fortunately our hospitals maybe not 6 stars hotels, do not charge that much and we still have capacity for the peak to come.

    At the end as somebody else mentioned aswell to pimp up my opinion: social distancing and disinfection is the key until vaccine comes or we get herd immunity as there is no chance otherwise that we all won't go through the virus.

    Most of us will survive, statistically nothing happened, daily number of new births globally still bigger than deaths from all causes. We still as people breath the most CO2 footprint so not the only problem to solve.

    Especially that in my country only about 2000 people died from COVID, flu kills about 30k annually every year and nobody even notices it as a stat worth dicussing.

    What will kill us for sure is if we don't redefine global economy, because the one you know has died already. Globalism died in 2020, existing supply chains are being redefined. We can talk globally like here, but world is becoming more local again. Big countries like US who used to watch over all of us in this world are less interested to maintain global police man status, yet would like to secure its trade routes. UK is redefining itself. EU is redefining itself.

    Chinesse are building a fleet, definitively to check if new Pearl Harbour is possible and they are pissed to be abandoned. Russia wants its piece of cake..

    We will survive covid, but XXI century won't be that peacefully growing to benefit existing structure of things for much longer I fear.

    Of course this is over-colorized story, but to highlight that something much worse than infection that currently peaks at 2.5M active cases in US. Which out of 331M represents 0.7% of your population. Ouf of that 0.7%, number of critical cases are unknown to me. in my country only 2-3% of infected persons went through critical states and about 50% of critical states ended up with death.

    That won't stop being 10B population globally in the next 30 years with far more complicated problems than using fear to - don't get me wrong - a real virus that spreads, to political causes which is what is often visible much more than the risk of being realistically infected with critical conditions and pass away.

    Especially in a country that full scope healthcare insurance is not a good job benefit, but a baseline offered by a country to support its citizen.

    No offence to any of you individually and to the country I've visited so many times. I'm a bit sarcastic just to shake the ground a bit, instead of playing a lemming role who just follows the news as a total believer with a bit of criticism to the ways some of our biggest problems of the world are getting solved, or tried.

    Cheers,
    /h1







    --- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 4,000+ files
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to HusTler on Sat Sep 19 19:06:06 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to Dennisk on Sat Sep 19 2020 10:03 am

    If I'm on line at the grocery store and someone without a mask gets too close to me I'll ask them."Excuse me sir/miss can you please step back? "I don't want any germs you may have". If they refuse, then there's going to

    okay, tell them to step back but dont do the 'dont want any germs you may have' that is contempt and contempt leads to shit.

    you have no right to get mad or confront someone if they arent wearing a mask.they may have a medical condition. that is there body and none of your business.

    you can do curbside pickup or order from amazon fresh or anything else so you arent standing in line someplace.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Sat Sep 19 23:15:00 2020
    Hello hollowone!

    ** On Saturday 19.09.20 - 16:47, hollowone wrote to DaiTengu:

    - I don't live in US, numbers in my country are different.

    Especially that in my country only about 2000 people died
    from COVID, flu kills about 30k annually every year and
    nobody even notices it as a stat worth dicussing.

    PMFJI... What *is* your country?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to MRO on Sat Sep 19 23:41:25 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to HusTler on Sat Sep 19 2020 03:06 pm

    you have no right to get mad or confront someone if they arent wearing a mask.they may have a medical condition. that is there body and none of your business.

    I disagree. I have every right to ask them to keep their distance from me.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to HusTler on Sun Sep 20 14:34:00 2020
    HusTler wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Stormy on Sat Sep 19 2020 12:31 pm

    I see people in close proximity to each other without masks in the streets. These are the people who pose the most threat. How can I be

    I don't really know what to believe about COVID-19. I keep seeing conflicting information. Some say that it is no worse than the flu (or

    It's hard to work out because the media will make points which draw the most attention, so keeping a perspective is difficult. For example, they talk of

    I don't understand how anyone can have trouble with these common sense suggestions. (6 feet, wear a mask) If you want to avoid getting another persons germs don't go near them. It's very simple. We as Humans have known this for hundreds of year. COVID is not the worlds first
    empidemic. If I'm on line at the grocery store and someone without a
    mask gets too close to me I'll ask them."Excuse me sir/miss can you
    please step back? "I don't want any germs you may have". If they
    refuse, then there's going to be a "scene". I WILL get loud. It's my
    God given right to protect myself from your diseased ugly face. One
    lady said to me why are you so upset sir? You have a mask on. This is
    the stupidiy and ignorance of some people. If you don't want to wear a mask that's fine. Just stay the fuck away from ME!

    Some people object to the compulsion, some just don't understand, and some just don't care. I'm not that worried about getting it, but there are some people in my life who simply cannot afford to catch it, so there is no way known I would risk passing it to THEM. Likewise, I urge them to take extra precaution.

    The other thing is, people just see basic rules "wear a mask", "don't to out after 8PM", so they just follow the rules, but not common sense. (ie, as long as I'm back by 7:59, Im OK). They don't actually understand transmission, and see these rules as nothing more than, well, rules, to be followed to the letter, but not in "spirit".

    You'd be surprised at how little some people comprehend.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to HusTler on Sun Sep 20 00:42:54 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to MRO on Sat Sep 19 2020 07:41 pm

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to HusTler on Sat Sep 19 2020 03:06 pm

    you have no right to get mad or confront someone if they arent wearing
    a mask.they may have a medical condition. that is there body and none
    of your business.

    I disagree. I have every right to ask them to keep their distance from me.


    that's not what i said.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Dennisk on Sun Sep 20 04:11:31 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to HusTler on Sun Sep 20 2020 10:34 am

    You'd be surprised at how little some people comprehend.

    After this long in the IT/Tech world, I keep thinking I've seen the bottom of the barrel for comprehension, but then a better idiot comes along and proves me wrong. There are people out there that I'm legitimately suprised can remember to breathe.
    ---
    Underminer - The Undermine BBS
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Static@VERT/SUBCBBS to MRO on Sun Sep 20 06:31:00 2020
    On 19 Sep 2020, MRO said the following...
    I disagree. I have every right to ask them to keep their distance fro

    that's not what i said.

    He said he'd tell someone not wearing a mask to back off because he doesn't want their germs. He didn't mention he'd say a single word to them about not wearing one. In fact he suggested the exact opposite of that.

    I'll agree with you though that the germs bit is insensitive and unecessary. I've had to tell people to back off in stores and the like but I've always been polite about it and so far everyone's politely moved away. In most cases they genuinely didn't realize they were standing so close.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Subcarrier BBS
  • From hollowone@VERT/AMIGAC to Ogg on Sun Sep 20 15:21:00 2020
    PMFJI... What *is* your country?

    Poland

    /h1

    --- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 4,000+ files
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Mon Sep 21 00:16:00 2020
    On 09-19-20 21:50, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    With 6 million people, a small proportion won't care, and a small proportion of 6 million is still a lot of people.

    True.

    But I'm not happy with the way people think that blanket restrictions
    are working. Victoria is a good example of the failure of the "precautionary" approach. I prefer risk management, which we are NOT doing. We are just doing what it takes to try and eliminate risk completely, instead of managing it.

    And tell me how you'll do that AND keep the risks at acceptable levels?

    The issues I see here are relared to probabilities and consequences (might as well use a risk matrix here ;) ). There are two main consequences from exposure to the virus:

    Death - This is "possible" (has happened), consequence is "Catastrophic". The risk here is "Extreme".

    Long term health impacts - This is somewhere ranging from "Possible" to "Probable". The consequences are at least "Major" (for myself, possibly even catastrophic, because of the knock on effects). As we have to take the worst case in risk management, this is also "Extreme" risk situation.

    As for reducing the risk, we can't change the consequences, until we have a vaccine, or at least a practical treatment that can prevent the severe consequences. So we can only influence the probability of exposute to the virus, which means we will at least need to know where it is and how best to avoid it. So testing and contact tracing, along with quarantining known cases would have to be involved.

    We also need to account for the lag time between exposure and going for a test, which suggests some ongoing measures to maintain a degree of distancing to slow unknown spreading.

    But I do agree that once we're back under control, the economy doesn't need to be shut down.


    ... The only things done by Friday are with Robinson Crusoe.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Mon Sep 21 01:16:00 2020
    On 09-20-20 10:34, Dennisk wrote to HusTler <=-

    Some people object to the compulsion, some just don't understand, and
    some just don't care. I'm not that worried about getting it, but there are some people in my life who simply cannot afford to catch it, so
    there is no way known I would risk passing it to THEM. Likewise, I
    urge them to take extra precaution.

    I treat the virus with a lot of respect. While the odds of me dying from it are likely lower than the average for my age group, because of my overall physical health, there's also the concern of chronic or possibly even permanent long term damage, which cound have serious implications for me. Not enough is known about the longer term health effects of COVID-a9, but they don't seem to have the same age or health dependent characteristics that fatalities do, meaning we're all equally likely to have long term consequences. I'd be unlikely to do what I do with a damaged heart, for instance.

    The other thing is, people just see basic rules "wear a mask", "don't
    to out after 8PM", so they just follow the rules, but not common sense.
    (ie, as long as I'm back by 7:59, Im OK). They don't actually
    understand transmission, and see these rules as nothing more than,
    well, rules, to be followed to the letter, but not in "spirit".

    True, that is a problem. I avoided Melbourne when things started going bas down there, because I considered the risk of transmission too high, when no one really knew where the virus actually was, and I also have contact with people who are less likely to survive the virus.

    You'd be surprised at how little some people comprehend.

    Nothing surprises me on that front. ;)
    ... Recession: your neighbour looses his job; depression: you do.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to MRO on Sun Sep 20 12:24:21 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to HusTler on Sat Sep 19 2020 08:42 pm

    you have no right to get mad or confront someone if they arent wearing
    a mask.they may have a medical condition. that is there body and none
    of your business.

    I disagree. I have every right to ask them to keep their distance from
    me.


    that's not what i said.

    Maybe I'll just ask them to back up cause they stink. Would that be better? I won't say a thing about not wearing a mask. I'll just say YO you Stink MF. BACK UP! How bout that? Do you still think I don't have the right to tell someone to back up? I think it's more politcally and ethically correct to ask them to back up if they are not wearing a mask but I have no problem telling them they need to bath.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Underminer on Sun Sep 20 14:45:41 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Underminer to Dennisk on Sun Sep 20 2020 12:11 am

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to HusTler on Sun Sep 20 2020 10:34 am

    You'd be surprised at how little some people comprehend.

    After this long in the IT/Tech world, I keep thinking I've seen the bottom of the barrel for comprehension, but then a better idiot comes along and proves me wrong. There are people out there that I'm legitimately suprised can remember to breathe.


    they surveyed 1,000 british women and 44% were unable to identify the vagina on a medical drawing.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Static on Sun Sep 20 14:46:49 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Static to MRO on Sun Sep 20 2020 02:31 am

    On 19 Sep 2020, MRO said the following...
    I disagree. I have every right to ask them to keep their
    distance fro

    that's not what i said.

    He said he'd tell someone not wearing a mask to back off because he doesn't want their germs. He didn't mention he'd say a single word to them


    dont tell me what i said and what he said. my reading comprehension is fine. ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to HusTler on Sun Sep 20 14:55:07 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to MRO on Sun Sep 20 2020 08:24 am


    Maybe I'll just ask them to back up cause they stink. Would that be better? I won't say a thing about not wearing a mask. I'll just say YO you Stink MF. BACK UP! How bout that? Do you still think I don't have the right to tell someone to back up? I think it's more politcally and ethically correct to ask them to back up if they are not wearing a mask but I have no problem telling them they need to bath.


    i think the way you are saying here that you do it is wrong.
    i'm not sure if you're talking shit or what.

    if you did it the way you are stating here, you would end up getting your ass kicked or being on some youtube video as a white supremacist. i hope you're being tactful.

    i've actually had an altercation with a person in a grocery
    store who was driving right up my ass with a cart and wouldnt start. he was a few inches away from my body. i told him to stop and he looked off into the distance and ignored me. he was wearing a mask, though. i had to get his attention.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Underminer on Sun Sep 20 12:14:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-

    You'd be surprised at how little some people comprehend.

    After this long in the IT/Tech world, I keep thinking I've seen the
    bottom of the barrel for comprehension, but then a better idiot comes along and proves me wrong. There are people out there that I'm legitimately suprised can remember to breathe. ---

    Yeah, I'm tired of running into the ones that won't change what
    they're doing for fear of learning something new. Ignore the multiple
    warnings that something is going away, then freak out when it breaks.

    I'm going to be running into this when I turn off G suite after 3
    years of Microsoft 365 at work.



    ... Overtly resist change
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Underminer on Sun Sep 20 16:10:24 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Underminer to Dennisk on Sun Sep 20 2020 12:11 am

    After this long in the IT/Tech world, I keep thinking I've seen the bottom of the barrel for comprehension, but then a better idiot comes along and proves me wrong. There are people out there that I'm legitimately suprised can remember to breathe.

    One time I was helping someone with their Amazon Echo/Alexa - They had to get a new modem/router from their ISP, and it had a different wi-fi ID and password. They aren't tech-savvy, so they don't know how to change that stuff or change the settings on their Amazon Echo (which I helped them set up in the first place). They don't live in town, so I had to help over the phone so they could change the wifi settings on their Echo. They asked if I could just change its wifi connection settings for them remotely.. They apparently didn't realize I can't do that if it's not connected to the internet.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to MRO on Sun Sep 20 18:20:06 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to HusTler on Sun Sep 20 2020 10:55 am

    i think the way you are saying here that you do it is wrong.
    i'm not sure if you're talking shit or what.

    if you did it the way you are stating here, you would end up getting your as kicked or being on some youtube video as a white supremacist. i hope you're being tactful.

    I am a white supremacist and don't see it as a bad thing. You're missing my point. If someone is going disrespect me and get too close to me while not wearing a mask, I have no respect for them and will behave accordingly. Regardless of their skin color or whatever country they migrated from.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to MRO on Sun Sep 20 22:12:00 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to HusTler on Sat Sep 19 2020 03:06 pm

    okay, tell them to step back but dont do the 'dont want any germs you may have' that is contempt and contempt leads to shit.

    you have no right to get mad or confront someone if they arent wearing a mask.they may have a medical condition. that is there body and none of your business.

    you can do curbside pickup or order from amazon fresh or anything else so you arent standing in line someplace.

    If I was terrified of germs and viruses, I would do my best not to attend public areas, as doing so would likely result in me coming across other human beings. There are a multitude of home shopping options for those who do not wish to leave the safety of their homes. I know many people who NEVER leave the house to shop for their groceries. We all have the internet now so online shopping has never been easier... hell, it's practically the norm in some places.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to HusTler on Sun Sep 20 21:37:36 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to MRO on Sun Sep 20 2020 02:20 pm

    if you did it the way you are stating here, you would end up getting
    your as kicked or being on some youtube video as a white supremacist.
    i hope you're being tactful.

    I am a white supremacist and don't see it as a bad thing. You're missing my point. If someone is going disrespect me and get too close to me while not wearing a mask, I have no respect for them and will behave accordingly. Regardless of their skin color or whatever country they migrated from.


    you're missing MY point. be tactful.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Nightfox on Sun Sep 20 21:40:40 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Nightfox to Underminer on Sun Sep 20 2020 12:10 pm

    I could just change its wifi connection settings for them remotely.. They apparently didn't realize I can't do that if it's not connected to the internet.
    Nightfox

    On a similar note I had a client not understanding why we'd need to either pull cable to connect a remote office he was setting up, or setup a VPN because "Well the plugs in the wall are the same size, shouldn't they be connected to each other already?"
    ---
    Underminer - The Undermine BBS
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Sun Sep 20 22:48:55 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Andeddu to MRO on Sun Sep 20 2020 06:12 pm


    you can do curbside pickup or order from amazon fresh or anything else
    so you arent standing in line someplace.

    If I was terrified of germs and viruses, I would do my best not to attend public areas, as doing so would likely result in me coming across other human beings. There are a multitude of home shopping options for those who do not wish to leave the safety of their homes. I know many people who NEVER leave the house to shop for their groceries. We all have the internet now so online shopping has never been easier... hell, it's practically the norm in some places.


    i have amazon fresh now but i dont use it. it seems like the prices are normal. i guess if you order 35 bucks you get free delivery.
    i live in the hood so i have to make sure i am home when it's delivered, though.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Havok@VERT/GMBBS to HusTler on Sun Sep 20 23:39:27 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to MRO on Sat Sep 19 2020 07:41 pm

    I disagree. I have every right to ask them to keep their distance from me.

    Laughing I was reading just yesterday that would be 26 feet, good luck
    yelling to him or her.




    -Havok










    ... I only touch base with reality on an as-needed basis!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Gray Matter BBS | graymatterbbs.com:2323
  • From Static@VERT/SUBCBBS to MRO on Mon Sep 21 03:17:00 2020
    On 20 Sep 2020, MRO said the following...
    dont tell me what i said and what he said. my reading comprehension is fine.

    I'm not so sure about that.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Subcarrier BBS
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Static on Mon Sep 21 03:07:52 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Static to MRO on Sun Sep 20 2020 11:17 pm

    On 20 Sep 2020, MRO said the following...
    dont tell me what i said and what he said. my reading comprehension
    is fine.

    I'm not so sure about that.


    well you take your ideas and shove them up your ass, random guy.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Underminer on Tue Sep 22 01:25:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to HusTler on Sun Sep 20 2020 10:34 am

    You'd be surprised at how little some people comprehend.

    After this long in the IT/Tech world, I keep thinking I've seen the
    bottom of the barrel for comprehension, but then a better idiot comes along and proves me wrong. There are people out there that I'm legitimately suprised can remember to breathe. ---

    I think they may have forgotten here and there, and the oxygen depravation led them to where they are.

    Seriously though, I think for a lot of people, they just don't care about much, or what they are doing. A lot of people simply refuse to think.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Tue Sep 22 01:41:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 09-19-20 21:50, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    With 6 million people, a small proportion won't care, and a small proportion of 6 million is still a lot of people.

    True.

    But I'm not happy with the way people think that blanket restrictions
    are working. Victoria is a good example of the failure of the "precautionary" approach. I prefer risk management, which we are NOT doing. We are just doing what it takes to try and eliminate risk completely, instead of managing it.

    And tell me how you'll do that AND keep the risks at acceptable levels?

    The issues I see here are relared to probabilities and consequences
    (might as well use a risk matrix here ;) ). There are two main consequences from exposure to the virus:

    Death - This is "possible" (has happened), consequence is
    "Catastrophic". The risk here is "Extreme".

    Long term health impacts - This is somewhere ranging from "Possible" to "Probable". The consequences are at least "Major" (for myself,
    possibly even catastrophic, because of the knock on effects). As we
    have to take the worst case in risk management, this is also "Extreme" risk situation.

    As for reducing the risk, we can't change the consequences, until we
    have a vaccine, or at least a practical treatment that can prevent the severe consequences. So we can only influence the probability of
    exposute to the virus, which means we will at least need to know where
    it is and how best to avoid it. So testing and contact tracing, along with quarantining known cases would have to be involved.

    We also need to account for the lag time between exposure and going for
    a test, which suggests some ongoing measures to maintain a degree of distancing to slow unknown spreading.

    But I do agree that once we're back under control, the economy doesn't need to be shut down.

    Precaution is the elimination of the source of risk, which is sometimes valid, sometimes not. This is the approach I think is being taken. Risk Management is acceptence of risk, and balancing the cost of controlling it, with the benefits of whatever activity is resulting in risk. (ie, balancing the economy with control of the virus).

    The problem is, that the 'precautionary' approach can bypass a cost/benefit analysis, and even bypass the analysis of other ways to manage risk. If you commit to ZERO cases, it drops other things off your radar. You lose sight of a sustainable plan, of focusing efforts where they count.

    I do this professionally, and I see the same problems at work. Sometimes, I think people make decisions so they can sleep better at night, and load the cost to others.

    Risk Management would have identified those most vulnerable, the areas which pose the greatest risk, and selectively controlled those areas. The hotel quarantine was a failure in part because the government was taking the precautionary approach, banking on an ALL OUT elimination. They didn't properly direct resources. So we had police busting people for getting a donut at 3AM, while known cases were walking around because private security guards were considered sufficient. We've seen the virus go through old-age homes, the last place you want it. The precautionary approach that Dan is taking has demonstrably failed. But people want the "hardest" approach, thinking that the harder you go, the better the results. But it doesn't work that way.

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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to HusTler on Mon Sep 21 14:03:00 2020
    HusTler wrote to Dennisk <=-

    I don't understand how anyone can have trouble with these common sense suggestions.

    Because they are not "common sence". They are political theater.

    If you want to avoid getting another
    persons germs don't go near them. It's very simple.

    I'm not a germ-a-phobe, so I don't care. Because I'm not a germ-a-phobe,
    I have an extremely healthy immune system.

    Our immune systems are WEAKENED by your "common sence" suggestions.

    We as Humans have
    known this for hundreds of year. COVID is not the worlds first
    empidemic.

    Then why did we handle this one so poorly?

    If I'm on line at the grocery store and someone without a
    mask gets too close to me I'll ask them."Excuse me sir/miss can you
    please step back? "I don't want any germs you may have". If they
    refuse, then there's going to be a "scene". I WILL get loud.

    And look like a fool and probably be asked to leave by the store manager for making a scene.

    It's my God given right to protect myself from your diseased ugly face.

    Actually, it's not. It's your God given right to hide in your home if you choose and wear a mask if you choose. It's not your right to make the world change because you are miseducated.

    ... A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to MRO on Mon Sep 21 14:23:00 2020
    MRO wrote to HusTler <=-

    you're missing MY point. be tactful.

    I just tell them, "I won't mask-debate with you in public."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abczQ2fTdqw


    ... A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
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    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Underminer on Mon Sep 21 10:30:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Nightfox <=-

    On a similar note I had a client not understanding why we'd need to
    either pull cable to connect a remote office he was setting up, or
    setup a VPN because "Well the plugs in the wall are the same size, shouldn't they be connected to each other already?" ---

    I thought I'd heard it all. I was wrong.



    np: Wall of Voodoo, "Spy World"


    ... Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Dr. What on Tue Sep 22 01:02:07 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dr. What to HusTler on Mon Sep 21 2020 10:03 am

    It's my God given right to protect myself from your diseased ugly face.

    Actually, it's not. It's your God given right to hide in your home if you choose and wear a mask if you choose. It's not your right to make the world change because you are miseducated.

    I'm not asking the world to change. I'm just asking your ignorant diseased ass to stay the fuck away from me.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Dennisk on Mon Sep 21 23:01:50 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Underminer on Mon Sep 21 2020 09:25 pm

    Seriously though, I think for a lot of people, they just don't care about much, or what they are doing. A lot of people simply refuse to think.

    That is definitely the truth, and highly annoying. Someone who wants to understand things but has difficulty is someone I have no issues taking time to try and walk through and explain to. Someone who is willfully ignorant makes me wish I could explode heads with my mind.
    ---
    Underminer - The Undermine BBS
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to HusTler on Tue Sep 22 06:17:34 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to MRO on Sun Sep 20 2020 02:20 pm

    I am a white supremacist and don't see it as a bad thing. You're missing my point. If someone is going disrespect me and get too close to me while not wearing a mask, I have no respect for them and will behave accordingly. Regardless of their skin color or whatever country they migrated from.

    HusTler

    A white supremacist living in a predominantly black neighbourhood in NYC. The irony.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From hollowone@VERT/AMIGAC to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 11:20:00 2020
    A white supremacist living in a predominantly black neighbourhood in
    NYC. The irony.

    Actually that may explain a lot of the pain in the ass that may convert into racism ;>

    /h1
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 4,000+ files
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Wed Sep 23 00:31:00 2020
    On 09-21-20 21:41, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Precaution is the elimination of the source of risk, which is sometimes valid, sometimes not. This is the approach I think is being taken.
    Risk Management is acceptence of risk, and balancing the cost of controlling it, with the benefits of whatever activity is resulting in risk. (ie, balancing the economy with control of the virus).

    The question that seems to be sidestepped here is "acceptable risk" (i.e. where do you draw the line?).

    The problem is, that the 'precautionary' approach can bypass a cost/benefit analysis, and even bypass the analysis of other ways to manage risk. If you commit to ZERO cases, it drops other things off
    your radar. You lose sight of a sustainable plan, of focusing efforts where they count.

    I can see the problem there.

    I do this professionally, and I see the same problems at work.
    Sometimes, I think people make decisions so they can sleep better at night, and load the cost to others.

    My risk management is done in more real time life or death situations, often where significant aspects are beyond our immediate control - think bushfires, etc. :) But I am more confident in our understanding of bushfires, their behaviour and their various effects, than I am about COVID. :) But our understanding of the virus is improving steadily.

    Risk Management would have identified those most vulnerable, the areas

    I've already pointed out that there are chronic effects which are serious, but not subject to the same probabilities as the much more publicised acute effects, and from there one has to consider the physical and mental health of those chronic cases, along with the additional cost to the healthcare system (and the economy, because they're probably not working to their capacity).

    The thing I don't like about this bug is all those unknowns that a lot of people overlook.

    which pose the greatest risk, and selectively controlled those areas.

    I definitely agree when it comes to controlling high risk areas and situations - transmission charateristics seem to be better understood now.

    The hotel quarantine was a failure in part because the government was taking the precautionary approach, banking on an ALL OUT elimination.
    They didn't properly direct resources. So we had police busting people for getting a donut at 3AM, while known cases were walking around
    because private security guards were considered sufficient. We've seen

    There seems to be a lot of links in that particular chain, including some obscure bits of government policy that shouldn't have been used in a critical part of pandemic management.

    the virus go through old-age homes, the last place you want it. The precautionary approach that Dan is taking has demonstrably failed. But people want the "hardest" approach, thinking that the harder you go,
    the better the results. But it doesn't work that way.

    I agree we could have done it better, and we can still improve.


    ... Look at it sideways.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Wed Sep 23 02:21:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 09-21-20 21:41, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Precaution is the elimination of the source of risk, which is sometimes valid, sometimes not. This is the approach I think is being taken.
    Risk Management is acceptence of risk, and balancing the cost of controlling it, with the benefits of whatever activity is resulting in risk. (ie, balancing the economy with control of the virus).

    The question that seems to be sidestepped here is "acceptable risk"
    (i.e. where do you draw the line?).

    Hard to say, but its a cost/benefit analysis. I see too many people pointing out to me that Dans lockdown IS working. But they are neglecting the aspect of cost. Sure, it works. Locking people down to reduce crime also works. But solutions must be weighed against their cost. People are not considering cost AT ALL.

    If you only look at effectiveness, without the cost, you lead towards some awful situations.

    Acceptable risk is having a low chance of contracting the virus, which is comparable to any other virus. For me, if I'm just at risk of catching Coronavirus as the Flu, that is acceptable. For older people, the risk profile changes, so THEY should take more precautions, and those who are in contact with them.

    The problem is, that the 'precautionary' approach can bypass a cost/benefit analysis, and even bypass the analysis of other ways to manage risk. If you commit to ZERO cases, it drops other things off
    your radar. You lose sight of a sustainable plan, of focusing efforts where they count.

    I can see the problem there.

    Essentially when you believe you don't have to face a risk, you don't prepare for it. For example, parents who instead of teaching their children how to handle the world "out there", simply don't let them out. They may be safer, but its a false sense of safety.

    I do this professionally, and I see the same problems at work.
    Sometimes, I think people make decisions so they can sleep better at night, and load the cost to others.

    My risk management is done in more real time life or death situations, often where significant aspects are beyond our immediate control -
    think bushfires, etc. :) But I am more confident in our understanding
    of bushfires, their behaviour and their various effects, than I am
    about COVID. :) But our understanding of the virus is improving
    steadily.

    In such cases, you have to make decisions very quickly, so its a little different to me where I can usually analyse. My philosophy when it comes to having to make quick decisions is to consider what can and can't be undone as a result of your decision.

    Risk Management would have identified those most vulnerable, the areas

    I've already pointed out that there are chronic effects which are
    serious, but not subject to the same probabilities as the much more publicised acute effects, and from there one has to consider the
    physical and mental health of those chronic cases, along with the additional cost to the healthcare system (and the economy, because
    they're probably not working to their capacity).

    The thing I don't like about this bug is all those unknowns that a lot
    of people overlook.

    Your general health seems to be an important factor. It's odd that people are not being urged to ensure they keep themselves healthy.

    which pose the greatest risk, and selectively controlled those areas.

    I definitely agree when it comes to controlling high risk areas and situations - transmission charateristics seem to be better understood
    now.

    The hotel quarantine was a failure in part because the government was taking the precautionary approach, banking on an ALL OUT elimination.
    They didn't properly direct resources. So we had police busting people for getting a donut at 3AM, while known cases were walking around
    because private security guards were considered sufficient. We've seen

    There seems to be a lot of links in that particular chain, including
    some obscure bits of government policy that shouldn't have been used in
    a critical part of pandemic management.

    Such as botched training. I didn't understand why they just left it to subcontractors. That way a real 'facepalm' moment for me. I have to ensure that people do their job correctly as part of my job, and I would never consider in a million years managing it the way they did.


    the virus go through old-age homes, the last place you want it. The precautionary approach that Dan is taking has demonstrably failed. But people want the "hardest" approach, thinking that the harder you go,
    the better the results. But it doesn't work that way.

    I agree we could have done it better, and we can still improve.

    We can maintain a comparible level of safety, without the same level of economic and social cost. In fact, we could INCREASE safety. Remember, lockdowns and financial ruin also cost lives, and shorten lifespans. I don't advocate we all get it, but I think we can loosen up in some areas, tighten in others. However, I see little impetus to do so. Dan I think wants to make sure he can sleep soundly at night.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 11:14:09 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Andeddu to HusTler on Tue Sep 22 2020 02:17 am

    A white supremacist living in a predominantly black neighbourhood in NYC. Th irony.

    If you don't think the blacks are racist you have another thing coming.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From echicken to HusTler on Tue Sep 22 17:26:47 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to MRO on Sun Sep 20 2020 14:20:06

    if you did it the way you are stating here, you would end up getting your as
    kicked or being on some youtube video as a white supremacist. i hope you're
    being tactful.

    I am a white supremacist and don't see it as a bad thing.

    I suspect most people who hold that view don't see it as a bad thing. At least you own it and wouldn't mind being called out for it, I guess?

    That you seem proud of this level of stupidity is evidence against your belief. If whites were actually supreme, there wouldn't be so many fucking morons among us.

    People are people; some are shitty, some aren't. It's likely that you're attributing to "race" a lot of behaviour that's actually the product of personal circumstances and lack of opportunity.

    ---
    echicken
    electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com
  • From echicken to HusTler on Tue Sep 22 17:34:13 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 2020 07:14:09

    A white supremacist living in a predominantly black neighbourhood in NYC. Th
    irony.

    If you don't think the blacks are racist you have another thing coming.

    They certainly didn't say that.

    Anyway, you're engaging in whataboutism. Even if that were true, it's not an excuse for you to behave the same way. Why not hold yourself to a higher standard?

    ---
    echicken
    electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 21:49:11 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Andeddu to HusTler on Tue Sep 22 2020 02:17 am

    to me while not wearing a mask, I have no respect for them and will
    behave accordingly. Regardless of their skin color or whatever country
    they migrated from.

    HusTler

    A white supremacist living in a predominantly black neighbourhood in NYC. The irony.


    well i dont think there's anything wrong with it as long as you are concerned with the improvement of your own 'race' and you arent concerned with harming others.

    malcolm x was a black supremacist.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Wed Sep 23 23:53:00 2020
    On 09-22-20 22:21, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The question that seems to be sidestepped here is "acceptable risk"
    (i.e. where do you draw the line?).

    Hard to say, but its a cost/benefit analysis. I see too many people pointing out to me that Dans lockdown IS working. But they are
    neglecting the aspect of cost. Sure, it works. Locking people down to reduce crime also works. But solutions must be weighed against their cost. People are not considering cost AT ALL.

    My view is we don't know the true costs of the virus.

    If you only look at effectiveness, without the cost, you lead towards
    some awful situations.

    True, and we have seen some of those, particularly with regards to border closures.

    Acceptable risk is having a low chance of contracting the virus, which
    is comparable to any other virus. For me, if I'm just at risk of
    catching Coronavirus as the Flu, that is acceptable. For older people, the risk profile changes, so THEY should take more precautions, and
    those who are in contact with them.

    I disagree on the "comparable to any other virus". In my case, flu is a poor comparison, because I seem to be highly resistant to catching flu in the first case, and if I do, it's _much_ less severe than it is for anyone else (typically a few days vs weeks).

    And again, you're only considering the acute risk, not the chronic risk profile, which is less well known, but doesn't appear to be as dependent on age. The latest I've heard is a possible link to COVID and Parkinsons. Both have loss of sense of small as an early symptom. Parkinsons is apparently related to inflammation of the brain, which happens to be something that COVID can cause.

    I feel the chronic risk may be higher than people are saying, and the costs, both personal and economic could much more than we think. Problem is we really won't know the chronic effects for years to decades.

    Essentially when you believe you don't have to face a risk, you don't prepare for it. For example, parents who instead of teaching their children how to handle the world "out there", simply don't let them
    out. They may be safer, but its a false sense of safety.

    On that, I agree with you. Children do need to experience risk in controlled settings.

    In such cases, you have to make decisions very quickly, so its a little different to me where I can usually analyse. My philosophy when it

    And I may have to change that decision quickly, in the light of changing circumstances.

    comes to having to make quick decisions is to consider what can and
    can't be undone as a result of your decision.

    That is part of our so-called "Dynamic Risk Assessment" process.

    Your general health seems to be an important factor. It's odd that
    people are not being urged to ensure they keep themselves healthy.

    Also, apparently less so for chronic effects, but yes, I agree that everyone should keep themselves as healthy as possible (in my book, that's regardless of whether there's a pandemic!).

    There seems to be a lot of links in that particular chain, including
    some obscure bits of government policy that shouldn't have been used in
    a critical part of pandemic management.

    Such as botched training. I didn't understand why they just left it to subcontractors. That way a real 'facepalm' moment for me. I have to ensure that people do their job correctly as part of my job, and I
    would never consider in a million years managing it the way they did.

    Botched training, and even trying to be "inclusive" for such a critical job. I would have been a bit more pedantic about having the best people, with the best possible training. I was like WTF?

    We can maintain a comparible level of safety, without the same level of economic and social cost. In fact, we could INCREASE safety.
    Remember, lockdowns and financial ruin also cost lives, and shorten lifespans. I don't advocate we all get it, but I think we can loosen up
    in some areas, tighten in others. However, I see little impetus to do
    so. Dan I think wants to make sure he can sleep soundly at night.

    Well, my first inclination is to gather information. Given the bigger case loads overseas, that's one place to look, as well as doing research here to see how many of those who contracted COVID went on to develop long term issues, and get some better numbers.

    We also need to understnad "super spreaders" better. Those events are another unknown. It seems not everyone spreads the virus equally. How, can we better prevent those super spreading events, with minimum disruption to life, the economy, etc?


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    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to HusTler on Wed Sep 23 15:34:00 2020
    HusTler wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I'm not asking the world to change. I'm just asking your ignorant diseased ass to stay the fuck away from me.

    You just contridicted yourself. You share a planet with many other people.


    ... Always remember you're unique - just like everyone else.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to HusTler on Wed Sep 23 22:52:04 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 2020 07:14 am

    A white supremacist living in a predominantly black neighbourhood in NYC.
    Th
    irony.

    If you don't think the blacks are racist you have another thing coming.

    HusTler

    I never said anything about that, dude. I just thought it was a little humorous that a self proclaimed racist is living in an area populated predominantly by people with a different skin colour. I don't know anything about black folk, I stay in a place where very few reside... I can't remember the last time I ever spoke to a black person.☼

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to MRO on Wed Sep 23 23:41:08 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 2020 05:49 pm

    well i dont think there's anything wrong with it as long as you are concerned with the improvement of your own 'race' and you arent concerned with harming others.

    malcolm x was a black supremacist.

    A white supremacist is someone who thinks they are superior to other people because of the colour of their skin. I believe you are describing white nationalism. Hustler described himself as a white supremacist.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Thu Sep 24 04:48:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 09-22-20 22:21, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The question that seems to be sidestepped here is "acceptable risk"
    (i.e. where do you draw the line?).

    Hard to say, but its a cost/benefit analysis. I see too many people pointing out to me that Dans lockdown IS working. But they are
    neglecting the aspect of cost. Sure, it works. Locking people down to reduce crime also works. But solutions must be weighed against their cost. People are not considering cost AT ALL.

    My view is we don't know the true costs of the virus.

    If you only look at effectiveness, without the cost, you lead towards
    some awful situations.

    True, and we have seen some of those, particularly with regards to
    border closures.

    Acceptable risk is having a low chance of contracting the virus, which
    is comparable to any other virus. For me, if I'm just at risk of
    catching Coronavirus as the Flu, that is acceptable. For older people, the risk profile changes, so THEY should take more precautions, and
    those who are in contact with them.

    I disagree on the "comparable to any other virus". In my case, flu is
    a poor comparison, because I seem to be highly resistant to catching
    flu in the first case, and if I do, it's _much_ less severe than it is
    for anyone else (typically a few days vs weeks).

    And again, you're only considering the acute risk, not the chronic risk profile, which is less well known, but doesn't appear to be as
    dependent on age. The latest I've heard is a possible link to COVID
    and Parkinsons. Both have loss of sense of small as an early symptom. Parkinsons is apparently related to inflammation of the brain, which happens to be something that COVID can cause.

    I feel the chronic risk may be higher than people are saying, and the costs, both personal and economic could much more than we think.
    Problem is we really won't know the chronic effects for years to
    decades.

    The trend I see is that people over-estimate the risk and over time, the actual impact is less than what people think. Note, this is a trend, not an absolute rule. I would expect there to be a heightened sense of risk and danger, which means people look for, and notice the longer term effects. Note that the flu also can result in long term effects of 6 months of more, and for those with existing complications, can lead to further complications to be managed. This isn't to say COVID-19 isn't a problem, but the concerns are not as unique as people think. My point is really we accepted this in the past. We accepted the flu, the deaths from it, the long term complications. These were not justifications to clamp down on freedom, withhold basic civil liberties and ruin hundreds of thousands of people econimically and cause long term financial, social and political damage. This is what irks me, that we have accepted control at any price, without what I believe is solid reasoning.

    Again, I believe that extra controls are necessary, but the language, the rhetoric, the reasoning is all off-kilter and often arbitrary, emotional and reactionary, and this won't yield good results. There are so many vested interests pushing a particular view, its hard to work out the truth.


    Essentially when you believe you don't have to face a risk, you don't prepare for it. For example, parents who instead of teaching their children how to handle the world "out there", simply don't let them
    out. They may be safer, but its a false sense of safety.

    On that, I agree with you. Children do need to experience risk in controlled settings.

    In such cases, you have to make decisions very quickly, so its a little different to me where I can usually analyse. My philosophy when it

    And I may have to change that decision quickly, in the light of
    changing circumstances.

    comes to having to make quick decisions is to consider what can and
    can't be undone as a result of your decision.

    That is part of our so-called "Dynamic Risk Assessment" process.

    Your general health seems to be an important factor. It's odd that
    people are not being urged to ensure they keep themselves healthy.

    Also, apparently less so for chronic effects, but yes, I agree that everyone should keep themselves as healthy as possible (in my book,
    that's regardless of whether there's a pandemic!).

    Joe Rogan often makes the very good point that it is odd that this is lacking in official communication. We've heard endless details about the hotel quarantine saga, but why isn't there as part of the education campaign, making people aware of how important their health and nutrition is. Worse still, where excercise and outdoor activities would HELP, we are locked in. I generally go for long walks late at night which is when I have the time, and now I can't, and I've noticed my health decline as a result. With young kids and a full time desk job, that is really my only opportunity to fit a reasonable size one in. So now the government is helping to DETERIORATE my wellbeing.

    There seems to be a lot of links in that particular chain, including
    some obscure bits of government policy that shouldn't have been used in
    a critical part of pandemic management.

    I can imagine how it works, as I deal with such beaurocracy all the time. Let me guess, many high level, legalistic sounding policy documents written by people justifying their position and little practical guidance?

    Such as botched training. I didn't understand why they just left it to subcontractors. That way a real 'facepalm' moment for me. I have to ensure that people do their job correctly as part of my job, and I
    would never consider in a million years managing it the way they did.

    Botched training, and even trying to be "inclusive" for such a critical job. I would have been a bit more pedantic about having the best
    people, with the best possible training. I was like WTF?

    There are many people in the public sector (and even private sector where it comes to regulatory/compliance roles), whose mode of operation is more based on producing information which ticks expected checkboxes based on the judgement of others, than in producing a materially positive result. That is to say, opinion and policy dictate results, rather than the actual material, objective outcomes.

    In their view, because they satisfied inclusivity or whatever, that is a benefit because that is how they are judged, or at least, how they think they would be judged. They have to answer to people who for whatever reason, have dumped these other 'goals' into the enterprise, and determine success by these metrics, not hard results. You have to satisfy the whole set of goals, and THAT becomes your job, moreso than simply containing the pandemic. And there is so much stuff added in nowadays, that if you simply wanted to "do your job well" (with regards to the direct objectives), you would never make it in such an organisation. It's a major flaw in how the Western world governs itself. The reality is, only one outcome matters, the actual PHYSICAL transfer of the virus from person to person, and success is based on whether that happens or not, or to what rate, against the cost of doing so. Organisatoins and beurocracies become more and more complex, and resemble more and more a structure whose purpose is for individuals to climb heirarchies, than solve problems, and climbing such heirarchies becomes more and more about appealing to opinion. Organisations often can't filter out these extraneous demands, or find that they need to accept them due to external pressures.

    This is an advatage that private enterprise can have, in that the people involved can make the direct, material outcome the sole criteria, which then leads to results. If they are able to resist external pressures to introduce other criteria that is, which sometimes they don't (i.e., they buy into shysters and hucksters.


    De >a comparible level of safety, without the same level of
    economic and social cost. In fact, we could INCREASE safety.
    Remember, lockdowns and financial ruin also cost lives, and shorten lifespans. I don't advocate we all get it, but I think we can loosen up
    in some areas, tighten in others. However, I see little impetus to do
    so. Dan I think wants to make sure he can sleep soundly at night.

    Well, my first inclination is to gather information. Given the bigger case loads overseas, that's one place to look, as well as doing
    research here to see how many of those who contracted COVID went on to develop long term issues, and get some better numbers.

    We also need to understnad "super spreaders" better. Those events are another unknown. It seems not everyone spreads the virus equally.
    How, can we better prevent those super spreading events, with minimum disruption to life, the economy, etc?

    It's seems there is a Pareto distribution here, and some people are responsible for most of the transmission. It could just be that person being in a room with others, where someone else infected was just working from home with a trip to the supermarket. It's not hard to find yourself in close proximity momentarily. And some people are just not as disciplined about keeping distnace, washing, not touching their face, etc.


    ... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Thu Sep 24 02:39:47 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Andeddu to MRO on Wed Sep 23 2020 07:41 pm

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Tue Sep 22 2020 05:49 pm

    well i dont think there's anything wrong with it as long as you are
    concerned with the improvement of your own 'race' and you arent
    concerned with harming others.

    malcolm x was a black supremacist.

    A white supremacist is someone who thinks they are superior to other people because of the colour of their skin. I believe you are describing white nationalism. Hustler described himself as a white supremacist.


    i dont believe in that media word.

    he can believe anything he wants as long as nobody gets hurt.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Thu Sep 24 23:25:00 2020
    On 09-24-20 00:48, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The trend I see is that people over-estimate the risk and over time,
    the actual impact is less than what people think. Note, this is a
    trend, not an absolute rule. I would expect there to be a heightened

    I have seen it go both ways, where people either grossly underestimate or overestimate the risk, and it takes time for everyone to get their head around the facts.

    sense of risk and danger, which means people look for, and notice the longer term effects. Note that the flu also can result in long term effects of 6 months of more, and for those with existing complications, can lead to further complications to be managed. This isn't to say COVID-19 isn't a problem, but the concerns are not as unique as people think. My point is really we accepted this in the past. We accepted

    True, though the flu is at least a known quantity with some level of vaccination generally available, though certainly not 100% effective.

    the flu, the deaths from it, the long term complications. These were
    not justifications to clamp down on freedom, withhold basic civil liberties and ruin hundreds of thousands of people econimically and
    cause long term financial, social and political damage. This is what
    irks me, that we have accepted control at any price, without what I believe is solid reasoning.

    I'm hopeful that we'll seen move into a sustainable steady state, where things are "mostly normal", but with some control measures, from encouraging better hygiene to enabling contract tracing, and better controls for sensitive places.
    Any I haven't seen any reliable comparisons between the seasonal flu (or even an outbreak like swine or avian flu) and COVID-19. I still feel like I'm lacking data to really draw any conclusions, and as you point out below, it's hard to get facts, through the vested interests.

    Again, I believe that extra controls are necessary, but the language,
    the rhetoric, the reasoning is all off-kilter and often arbitrary, emotional and reactionary, and this won't yield good results. There
    are so many vested interests pushing a particular view, its hard to
    work out the truth.

    Agree on the vested interests. If we are "at war" with this virus, the truth is certainly the first casualty, as usual. :)

    Joe Rogan often makes the very good point that it is odd that this is lacking in official communication. We've heard endless details about
    the hotel quarantine saga, but why isn't there as part of the education campaign, making people aware of how important their health and
    nutrition is. Worse still, where excercise and outdoor activities
    would HELP, we are locked in. I generally go for long walks late at
    night which is when I have the time, and now I can't, and I've noticed
    my health decline as a result. With young kids and a full time desk
    job, that is really my only opportunity to fit a reasonable size one
    in. So now the government is helping to DETERIORATE my wellbeing.

    Now, that is a very good point, and I suspect you're not alone. I know others who have complained about losing some level of fitness. I've been relatively lucky, having enough flexibility, though my strength probably hasn't increased as much as it would have in the gym, and that's still not due to open until late November.

    I can imagine how it works, as I deal with such beaurocracy all the
    time. Let me guess, many high level, legalistic sounding policy
    documents written by people justifying their position and little
    practical guidance?

    Yes, I suspect that's the case.

    There are many people in the public sector (and even private sector
    where it comes to regulatory/compliance roles), whose mode of operation
    is more based on producing information which ticks expected checkboxes based on the judgement of others, than in producing a materially
    positive result. That is to say, opinion and policy dictate results, rather than the actual material, objective outcomes.

    Yes, I see this all too often as well, either a tick box exercise or as tokenism for some agenda. :/ And I agree with the next paragraph (omitted for brevity) about all those extraneous bureaucratic and political pressures that are extraneous to the mission.

    This is an advatage that private enterprise can have, in that the
    people involved can make the direct, material outcome the sole
    criteria, which then leads to results. If they are able to resist external pressures to introduce other criteria that is, which sometimes they don't (i.e., they buy into shysters and hucksters.

    A lot of private companies do fall prey to the same pressures, but yes, those focused on the important goals can really achieve well here.

    It's seems there is a Pareto distribution here, and some people are

    I'm not familiar with that particular distribution.

    responsible for most of the transmission. It could just be that person being in a room with others, where someone else infected was just

    Yes, it seems some people are prone to spreading the virus much more than others. I haven't seen any information that offers an explanation as to why that is, whether it's something about the person themselves, or whether it is a function of their particular movements, somewhere in between, or something else altogether.

    working from home with a trip to the supermarket. It's not hard to
    find yourself in close proximity momentarily. And some people are just not as disciplined about keeping distnace, washing, not touching their face, etc.

    True. More variables, more study needed. :)


    ... "Aw, mom, you act like I'm not even wearing a bungee cord!"
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Dr. What on Thu Sep 24 14:22:32 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dr. What to HusTler on Mon Sep 21 2020 10:03 am

    It's my God given right to protect myself from your diseased ugly
    face.

    Actually, it's not. It's your God given right to hide in your home if you choose and wear a mask if you choose. It's not your right to make the world change because you are miseducated.

    This is like saying You should hide in your home if you don't want me to punch you in your diseased, ugly face.

    "It's his fault, officer, he should have stayed home" isn't going to fly there, and for some people, getting punched in the face is far better than catching Covid-19.

    the concept of "personal space" has never been so important. And now it's expanded from a foot or two (30-60cm) to 6ft+ (2m+).

    If I'm capable of punching you in your diseased, ugly face, you're too fucking close.

    DaiTengu

    ... Monday is a hard way to spend one-seventh of your life.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Fri Sep 25 07:55:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 09-24-20 00:48, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The trend I see is that people over-estimate the risk and over time,
    the actual impact is less than what people think. Note, this is a
    trend, not an absolute rule. I would expect there to be a heightened

    I have seen it go both ways, where people either grossly underestimate
    or overestimate the risk, and it takes time for everyone to get their
    head around the facts.

    sense of risk and danger, which means people look for, and notice the longer term effects. Note that the flu also can result in long term effects of 6 months of more, and for those with existing complications, can lead to further complications to be managed. This isn't to say COVID-19 isn't a problem, but the concerns are not as unique as people think. My point is really we accepted this in the past. We accepted

    True, though the flu is at least a known quantity with some level of vaccination generally available, though certainly not 100% effective.

    the flu, the deaths from it, the long term complications. These were
    not justifications to clamp down on freedom, withhold basic civil liberties and ruin hundreds of thousands of people econimically and
    cause long term financial, social and political damage. This is what
    irks me, that we have accepted control at any price, without what I believe is solid reasoning.

    I'm hopeful that we'll seen move into a sustainable steady state, where things are "mostly normal", but with some control measures, from encouraging better hygiene to enabling contract tracing, and better controls for sensitive places.
    Any I haven't seen any reliable comparisons between the seasonal flu
    (or even an outbreak like swine or avian flu) and COVID-19. I still
    feel like I'm lacking data to really draw any conclusions, and as you point out below, it's hard to get facts, through the vested interests.

    Again, I believe that extra controls are necessary, but the language,
    the rhetoric, the reasoning is all off-kilter and often arbitrary, emotional and reactionary, and this won't yield good results. There
    are so many vested interests pushing a particular view, its hard to
    work out the truth.

    Agree on the vested interests. If we are "at war" with this virus, the truth is certainly the first casualty, as usual. :)

    Joe Rogan often makes the very good point that it is odd that this is lacking in official communication. We've heard endless details about
    the hotel quarantine saga, but why isn't there as part of the education campaign, making people aware of how important their health and
    nutrition is. Worse still, where excercise and outdoor activities
    would HELP, we are locked in. I generally go for long walks late at
    night which is when I have the time, and now I can't, and I've noticed
    my health decline as a result. With young kids and a full time desk
    job, that is really my only opportunity to fit a reasonable size one
    in. So now the government is helping to DETERIORATE my wellbeing.

    Now, that is a very good point, and I suspect you're not alone. I know others who have complained about losing some level of fitness. I've
    been relatively lucky, having enough flexibility, though my strength probably hasn't increased as much as it would have in the gym, and
    that's still not due to open until late November.

    I can imagine how it works, as I deal with such beaurocracy all the
    time. Let me guess, many high level, legalistic sounding policy
    documents written by people justifying their position and little
    practical guidance?

    Yes, I suspect that's the case.

    There are many people in the public sector (and even private sector
    where it comes to regulatory/compliance roles), whose mode of operation
    is more based on producing information which ticks expected checkboxes based on the judgement of others, than in producing a materially
    positive result. That is to say, opinion and policy dictate results, rather than the actual material, objective outcomes.

    Yes, I see this all too often as well, either a tick box exercise or as tokenism for some agenda. :/ And I agree with the next paragraph
    (omitted for brevity) about all those extraneous bureaucratic and political pressures that are extraneous to the mission.

    This is an advatage that private enterprise can have, in that the
    people involved can make the direct, material outcome the sole
    criteria, which then leads to results. If they are able to resist external pressures to introduce other criteria that is, which sometimes they don't (i.e., they buy into shysters and hucksters.

    A lot of private companies do fall prey to the same pressures, but yes, those focused on the important goals can really achieve well here.

    It's seems there is a Pareto distribution here, and some people are

    I'm not familiar with that particular distribution.

    responsible for most of the transmission. It could just be that person being in a room with others, where someone else infected was just

    Yes, it seems some people are prone to spreading the virus much more
    than others. I haven't seen any information that offers an explanation
    as to why that is, whether it's something about the person themselves,
    or whether it is a function of their particular movements, somewhere in between, or something else altogether.

    working from home with a trip to the supermarket. It's not hard to
    find yourself in close proximity momentarily. And some people are just not as disciplined about keeping distnace, washing, not touching their face, etc.

    True. More variables, more study needed. :)

    The Pareto distribution is a mathematical rule about distribution of cause and effect, AKA the 80/20 rule, or that 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes. For example, most of the wealth is held by a few, most of the birds you might see in an environment are the result of a minority of the species that live there, most of the canopy in a rainforest is caused by a minority of the plants, etc etc. So likewise, perhaps the large bulk if infections are caused by a few.

    I probably blathered on too much about organisational problems, but only because its a constant struggle in my personal life, and a direct negative impact. Also, I think this problem is far more serious than people realise. It can literally undo civilisations. Thats why I'm focused on these issues, because while COVID is an IMMEDIATE existential threat, it's reveleaed to me gaping flaws in not only our systems, but in the way we THINK. In the not too distant future, we will control the virus, but all the problems caused by our broken methodology will remain and fester, and we won't recover fully. The next crisis that comes along, will screw us even more. Since September 11, 2001, each crisis has just made us weaker and weaker, and this will too. It also literally costs lives, but not being and immediate and obvious threat, its overlooked. There is no 'roaring 20's' after this.



    ... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Fri Sep 25 23:04:00 2020
    On 09-25-20 03:55, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The Pareto distribution is a mathematical rule about distribution of
    cause and effect, AKA the 80/20 rule, or that 80% of the effects come
    from 20% of the causes. For example, most of the wealth is held by a
    few, most of the birds you might see in an environment are the result
    of a minority of the species that live there, most of the canopy in a rainforest is caused by a minority of the plants, etc etc. So
    likewise, perhaps the large bulk if infections are caused by a few.

    Thanks. Everything I've seen points to this being very relevant to what's going on with COVID-19 transmission.

    I probably blathered on too much about organisational problems, but
    only because its a constant struggle in my personal life, and a direct negative impact. Also, I think this problem is far more serious than people realise. It can literally undo civilisations. Thats why I'm focused on these issues, because while COVID is an IMMEDIATE
    existential threat, it's reveleaed to me gaping flaws in not only our systems, but in the way we THINK. In the not too distant future, we
    will control the virus, but all the problems caused by our broken methodology will remain and fester, and we won't recover fully. The
    next crisis that comes along, will screw us even more. Since September 11, 2001, each crisis has just made us weaker and weaker, and this will too. It also literally costs lives, but not being and immediate and obvious threat, its overlooked. There is no 'roaring 20's' after this.

    Well, on the organisational issues, I agree. My perspective is probably a bit different to most. Firstly, it's not based upon an occupational perspective, but more decades of observations, which my brain automatically turns into patterns and trends, and I see the same things over and over again, especially in government, and to a lesser extent, big business.

    We certaingly need more diverse influences in our thinking styles, as a society, so we can have a better chance of avoiding the same traps over and over again. Also, the same human issues crop up time and time again - greed, status and social standing, insecurities, etc.


    ... Federal Employment Principle: Confusion creates jobs.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Dennisk on Fri Sep 25 12:53:33 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Fri Sep 25 2020 03:55 am

    gaping flaws in not only our systems, but in the way we THINK. In the not to distant future, we will control the virus, but all the problems caused by ou broken methodology will remain and fester, and we won't recover fully. The next crisis that comes along, will screw us even more. Since September 11,

    2001, each crisis has just made us weaker and weaker, and this will too. It

    I disagree. We have become stronger and better equiped to keep threats out of our country.

    also literally costs lives, but not being and immediate and obvious threat,

    COVID-19 should be a wake up call for people to realize the possibilities of germ warfare. From what I can tell it has not. So we are destined to kill each other because there are too many ignorant and stupid people in our world.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to HusTler on Fri Sep 25 17:22:44 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to Dennisk on Fri Sep 25 2020 08:53 am

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Fri Sep 25 2020 03:55 am

    gaping flaws in not only our systems, but in the way we THINK. In the
    not to distant future, we will control the virus, but all the problems
    caused by ou broken methodology will remain and fester, and we won't
    recover fully. The next crisis that comes along, will screw us even
    more. Since September 11,

    2001, each crisis has just made us weaker and weaker, and this will too. It

    I disagree. We have become stronger and better equiped to keep threats out of our country.

    also literally costs lives, but not being and immediate and obvious
    threat,

    COVID-19 should be a wake up call for people to realize the possibilities of germ warfare. From what I can tell it has not. So we are destined to kill each other because there are too many ignorant and stupid people in our world.
    our world.


    i still dont think we can handle shit like this. the swine flu spread like wildfire and so does everything else. aids even spread to the same areas.

    we need to eliminate travel to truly protect our countries and we cant do that. ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Sat Sep 26 12:18:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 09-25-20 03:55, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The Pareto distribution is a mathematical rule about distribution of
    cause and effect, AKA the 80/20 rule, or that 80% of the effects come
    from 20% of the causes. For example, most of the wealth is held by a
    few, most of the birds you might see in an environment are the result
    of a minority of the species that live there, most of the canopy in a rainforest is caused by a minority of the plants, etc etc. So
    likewise, perhaps the large bulk if infections are caused by a few.

    Thanks. Everything I've seen points to this being very relevant to
    what's going on with COVID-19 transmission.

    I probably blathered on too much about organisational problems, but
    only because its a constant struggle in my personal life, and a direct negative impact. Also, I think this problem is far more serious than people realise. It can literally undo civilisations. Thats why I'm focused on these issues, because while COVID is an IMMEDIATE
    existential threat, it's reveleaed to me gaping flaws in not only our systems, but in the way we THINK. In the not too distant future, we
    will control the virus, but all the problems caused by our broken methodology will remain and fester, and we won't recover fully. The
    next crisis that comes along, will screw us even more. Since September 11, 2001, each crisis has just made us weaker and weaker, and this will too. It also literally costs lives, but not being and immediate and obvious threat, its overlooked. There is no 'roaring 20's' after this.

    Well, on the organisational issues, I agree. My perspective is
    probably a bit different to most. Firstly, it's not based upon an occupational perspective, but more decades of observations, which my
    brain automatically turns into patterns and trends, and I see the same things over and over again, especially in government, and to a lesser extent, big business.

    We certaingly need more diverse influences in our thinking styles, as a society, so we can have a better chance of avoiding the same traps over and over again. Also, the same human issues crop up time and time
    again - greed, status and social standing, insecurities, etc.


    A lot of these flaws are inherit in us, but we can use reason and logic. This is increasingly being short ciruited, as we seem to want to more and more move towards conslusions that we feel are right, than are logically correct.


    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to HusTler on Sat Sep 26 13:43:00 2020
    HusTler wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Fri Sep 25 2020 03:55 am

    gaping flaws in not only our systems, but in the way we THINK. In the not to distant future, we will control the virus, but all the problems caused by ou broken methodology will remain and fester, and we won't recover fully. The next crisis that comes along, will screw us even more. Since September 11,

    2001, each crisis has just made us weaker and weaker, and this will too. It

    I disagree. We have become stronger and better equiped to keep threats
    out of our country.

    also literally costs lives, but not being and immediate and obvious threat,

    COVID-19 should be a wake up call for people to realize the
    possibilities of germ warfare. From what I can tell it has not. So we
    are destined to kill each other because there are too many ignorant and stupid people in our world.

    It's very hard to contain the germs, they will come back to bite you. For me, I think its revealed how difficult actual germ warfare would be. On the other hand, sometimes I think that maybe it was allowed to spread to undermine us.


    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun Sep 27 00:24:00 2020
    On 09-26-20 08:18, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    A lot of these flaws are inherit in us, but we can use reason and
    logic. This is increasingly being short ciruited, as we seem to want
    to more and more move towards conslusions that we feel are right, than
    are logically correct.

    Yes, history keeps repeating itself. We _can_ use logic and reason in theory, but in practice, it rarely seems to work that way. Even NASA screws this one up (Apollo 1, Apollo 13, Challenger, Columbia...).


    ... Always drink upstream from the herd.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to MRO on Sat Sep 26 12:09:42 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: MRO to HusTler on Fri Sep 25 2020 01:22 pm

    COVID-19 should be a wake up call for people to realize the
    possibilities of germ warfare. From what I can tell it has not. So we
    are destined to kill each other because there are too many ignorant and stupid people in our world.
    our world.


    i still dont think we can handle shit like this. the swine flu spread like wildfire and so does everything else. aids even spread to the same areas.

    I think if there was more unity we could. But right now there's way too much discord.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to HusTler on Sat Sep 26 14:56:32 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: HusTler to MRO on Sat Sep 26 2020 08:09 am

    I think if there was more unity we could. But right now there's way too much discord.

    Yeah and discord sucks. Teamspeak was much better ;)
    ---
    Underminer - The Undermine BBS
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Sat Sep 26 19:37:19 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to HusTler on Sat Sep 26 2020 09:43 am

    COVID-19 should be a wake up call for people to realize the
    possibilities of germ warfare. From what I can tell it has not. So we
    are destined to kill each other because there are too many ignorant and
    stupid people in our world.

    It's very hard to contain the germs, they will come back to bite you. For me, I think its revealed how difficult actual germ warfare would be. On the other hand, sometimes I think that maybe it was allowed to spread to undermine us.


    why do you think it's difficult? covid spread fast and so did the swine flu. ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Sun Sep 13 22:50:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 09-26-20 08:18, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    A lot of these flaws are inherit in us, but we can use reason and
    logic. This is increasingly being short ciruited, as we seem to want
    to more and more move towards conslusions that we feel are right, than
    are logically correct.

    Yes, history keeps repeating itself. We _can_ use logic and reason in theory, but in practice, it rarely seems to work that way. Even NASA screws this one up (Apollo 1, Apollo 13, Challenger, Columbia...).

    I wouldn't use those examples. Some of these are lapses in working
    processes, errors. I'm referring to things such as political movements
    which base their validity on how their ideas sound, rather than say, the
    end result of their application.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.29
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to MRO on Sun Sep 13 23:45:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to HusTler on Sat Sep 26 2020 09:43 am

    COVID-19 should be a wake up call for people to realize the
    possibilities of germ warfare. From what I can tell it has not. So we
    are destined to kill each other because there are too many ignorant and
    stupid people in our world.

    It's very hard to contain the germs, they will come back to bite you. For me, I think its revealed how difficult actual germ warfare would be. On the other hand, sometimes I think that maybe it was allowed to spread to undermine us.


    why do you think it's difficult? covid spread fast and so did the swine flu. ---

    If you were to release a virus as an act of war, it would be hard for it
    not to also affect your population. You would have to transfer it OS,
    release it there, but then it would spread around the world, affecting
    many other neutral countries.



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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Sun Sep 27 04:40:57 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Sun Sep 13 2020 07:45 pm

    If you were to release a virus as an act of war, it would be hard for it not to also affect your population. You would have to transfer it OS, release it there, but then it would spread around the world, affecting many other neutral countries.

    if the virus only affected certain types of people, or if there
    would be an antibody that could be administered to people and make them immune, that would be something they could work with.
    ---
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun Sep 27 22:28:00 2020
    On 09-13-20 18:50, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I wouldn't use those examples. Some of these are lapses in working processes, errors. I'm referring to things such as political movements which base their validity on how their ideas sound, rather than say,
    the end result of their application.

    Fair enough. Political ideas do seem to go through trends, attract ma following then prove to be not what they were cracked up to be. Recently, there has been a lot of populism around the world, which seems to be a particularly short sighted set of ideas.

    As for the lapses in working processes, many of those "lapses" turned out to be due to human factors like managerial or external pressures, that exacerbated the technical issues or even prevented them from being resolved. :/


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Vk3jed on Sun Sep 27 19:17:52 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Vk3jed to Dennisk on Sun Sep 27 2020 06:28 pm

    Fair enough. Political ideas do seem to go through trends, attract ma following then prove to be not what they were cracked up to be. Recently, there has been a lot of populism around the world, which seems to be a particularly short sighted set of ideas.

    Populism is a byproduct of representative democracies.

    Political parties are just firms that sell political representation. In order to survive they need to generate a product they can sell and hype it so people will demand it. That will get the party both votes and money.

    The masses are dumb so the products that sell well are the populist messages. "We will take Jack's money because he has too much and give it to you!" is a popular one which will get you votes.

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    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to MRO on Mon Sep 28 02:10:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Sun Sep 13 2020 07:45 pm

    If you were to release a virus as an act of war, it would be hard for it not to also affect your population. You would have to transfer it OS, release it there, but then it would spread around the world, affecting many other neutral countries.

    if the virus only affected certain types of people, or if there
    would be an antibody that could be administered to people and make them immune, that would be something they could work with. ---

    Possibly. I think these problems are harder to solve than you might realise. I don't discount it as a possibility, it is definately something you could do. Crude biological warfare was conducted centuries ago by people catapulting dead horses into a beseiged city...


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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Mon Sep 28 02:15:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 09-13-20 18:50, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I wouldn't use those examples. Some of these are lapses in working processes, errors. I'm referring to things such as political movements which base their validity on how their ideas sound, rather than say,
    the end result of their application.

    Fair enough. Political ideas do seem to go through trends, attract ma following then prove to be not what they were cracked up to be.
    Recently, there has been a lot of populism around the world, which
    seems to be a particularly short sighted set of ideas.

    As for the lapses in working processes, many of those "lapses" turned
    out to be due to human factors like managerial or external pressures,
    that exacerbated the technical issues or even prevented them from being resolved. :/

    That's true, there were organisational issues which led to it. What concerns me more is the growing idea that knowledge and reason itself is not important. Where identity seems to qualify someone more. I've noted this occuring more and more, where the person hired to perform a task is hired simply because of what they are, and that those doing the hiring think this attribute is actually more important than other, well, important attributes. Would you want to fly in a plane where the engineers were selected on criteria which prioritised how cheerful they were? Because you could very well be doing so in the very near future.

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Arelor on Mon Sep 28 23:08:00 2020
    On 09-27-20 15:17, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The masses are dumb so the products that sell well are the populist messages. "We will take Jack's money because he has too much and give
    it to you!" is a popular one which will get you votes.

    Unfortunately. :/


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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Mon Sep 28 23:13:00 2020
    On 09-27-20 22:15, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    That's true, there were organisational issues which led to it. What concerns me more is the growing idea that knowledge and reason itself
    is not important. Where identity seems to qualify someone more. I've noted this occuring more and more, where the person hired to perform a task is hired simply because of what they are, and that those doing the hiring think this attribute is actually more important than other,
    well, important attributes. Would you want to fly in a plane where the engineers were selected on criteria which prioritised how cheerful they were? Because you could very well be doing so in the very near future.

    Yes, I've seen this too, and the whole hiring process is normally geared towards personality, rather than technical proficiency these days - self promotion, interviews, etc, and what sort of story they can spin, or how much they can charm the interviewer.

    And of course, we all know someone with a story of getting a job because they knew someone inside the company.


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  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Dennisk on Mon Sep 28 12:04:12 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Sun Sep 13 2020 06:50 pm

    A lot of these flaws are inherit in us, but we can use reason and
    Yes, history keeps repeating itself. We _can_ use logic and reason in theory, but in practice, it rarely seems to work that way. Even NASA screws this one up (Apollo 1, Apollo 13, Challenger, Columbia...).

    I wouldn't use those examples. Some of these are lapses in working processes, errors. I'm referring to things such as political movements
    which base their validity on how their ideas sound, rather than say, the
    end result of their application.

    Political movements are based on what people want. Their validity has nothing to do with the movement. The people believe they are right want something from their government. eg Black Lives Matter.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Mon Sep 28 14:12:00 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Sun Sep 27 2020 10:10 pm

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Sun Sep 13 2020 07:45 pm

    If you were to release a virus as an act of war, it would be hard for i not to also affect your population. You would have to transfer it OS, release it there, but then it would spread around the world, affecting many other neutral countries.

    if the virus only affected certain types of people, or if there
    would be an antibody that could be administered to people and make them immune, that would be something they could work with. ---

    Possibly. I think these problems are harder to solve than you might realise I don't discount it as a possibility, it is definately something you could d Crude biological warfare was conducted centuries ago by people catapulting d horses into a beseiged city...


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    During the first Gulf War there were rumors of a chemical sprayed over Iraqi troop positions that simualted the characteristic of sand flea pheromones
    when it contacted human skin. It probably turned every surface into a sand flea magnet. I figure a technology like that could be used to redirect
    plagues of locusts and other bugs that are native to an area into cities and over crops.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Mon Sep 28 14:27:00 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Sun Sep 27 2020 10:15 pm



    That's true, there were organisational issues which led to it. What concern me more is the growing idea that knowledge and reason itself is not importan Where identity seems to qualify someone more. I've noted this occuring more and more, where the person hired to perform a task is hired simply because o what they are, and that those doing the hiring think this attribute is actua more important than other, well, important attributes. Would you want to fl in a plane where the engineers were selected on criteria which prioritised h cheerful they were? Because you could very well be doing so in the very nea future.


    A friend worked on an IT project where he worked independently from the rest
    of the department, and only interfaced with a manager or person responsible
    for running a system. Each year HR would put out a peer review, which would ask employees in your department how well they get along with you, and how
    well they contribute to the team. Technically, he should've never been included since he was a contractor, but some places treat all contractors as long term staff augmentation, regardless if there's an end date on the contract. Since he didn't need to interact with anyone in the department, he received bad marks. Even though his manager he reported to tried to explain the situation, some "human performance" expert wanted to interview him
    because they couldn't fathom this type of work relationship functioning in their work "culture." They informed him this would affect his share in the incentive program, which was funny because as a contractor he wasn't a participant in it!

    ---
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  • From hollowone@VERT/AMIGAC to MRO on Mon Sep 28 00:46:00 2020
    If you were to release a virus as an act of war, it would be hard for it not to also affect your population. You would have to transfer it OS, release it there, but then it would spread around the world, affecting many other neutral countries.

    if the virus only affected certain types of people, or if there
    would be an antibody that could be administered to people and make them immune, that would be something they could work with. ---


    Are we now gossiping that the Chinesse made it on purpose?

    /h1
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Tue Sep 29 03:01:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 09-27-20 22:15, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    That's true, there were organisational issues which led to it. What concerns me more is the growing idea that knowledge and reason itself
    is not important. Where identity seems to qualify someone more. I've noted this occuring more and more, where the person hired to perform a task is hired simply because of what they are, and that those doing the hiring think this attribute is actually more important than other,
    well, important attributes. Would you want to fly in a plane where the engineers were selected on criteria which prioritised how cheerful they were? Because you could very well be doing so in the very near future.

    Yes, I've seen this too, and the whole hiring process is normally
    geared towards personality, rather than technical proficiency these
    days - self promotion, interviews, etc, and what sort of story they can spin, or how much they can charm the interviewer.

    And of course, we all know someone with a story of getting a job
    because they knew someone inside the company.

    And this leads to disaster, as we have seen. I was discussing this with my wife, who thinks I'm being unfair to Daniel Andrews in thinking he should be removed from his position of power. We are too tolerant of people in power over us, not exercising it judiciously. If you CHOOSE to take a position of responsibility, where your decisions can affect the wellbeing of others, you MUST take the course of action with the best consequences. People who put their own ideological requirements above my welfare deserve to be held accountable.

    I take a very dim view of this idea, as it undermines the wellbeing of us all, and there is a big problem with people pusshing this new criteria without being challenged.


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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to HusTler on Tue Sep 29 05:21:00 2020
    HusTler wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Sun Sep 13 2020 06:50 pm

    A lot of these flaws are inherit in us, but we can use reason and
    Yes, history keeps repeating itself. We _can_ use logic and reason in theory, but in practice, it rarely seems to work that way. Even NASA screws this one up (Apollo 1, Apollo 13, Challenger, Columbia...).

    I wouldn't use those examples. Some of these are lapses in working processes, errors. I'm referring to things such as political movements
    which base their validity on how their ideas sound, rather than say, the
    end result of their application.

    Political movements are based on what people want. Their validity has nothing to do with the movement. The people believe they are right want something from their government. eg Black Lives Matter.

    People want lots of things, but you need to know how to create the conditions which make it possible. Just saying you want it, or demanding it, is not enough, and often counter productive. History is full of example of people who pushed for "peace" and "mercy" and "Brotherhood" creating tyrannies because their methodology was all wrong. That is happening again today.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Moondog on Tue Sep 29 05:27:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Sun Sep 27 2020 10:15 pm



    That's true, there were organisational issues which led to it. What concern me more is the growing idea that knowledge and reason itself is not importan Where identity seems to qualify someone more. I've noted this occuring more and more, where the person hired to perform a task is hired simply because o what they are, and that those doing the hiring think this attribute is actua more important than other, well, important attributes. Would you want to fl in a plane where the engineers were selected on criteria which prioritised h cheerful they were? Because you could very well be doing so in the very nea future.


    A friend worked on an IT project where he worked independently from the rest of the department, and only interfaced with a manager or person responsible for running a system. Each year HR would put out a peer review, which would ask employees in your department how well they get along with you, and how well they contribute to the team. Technically,
    he should've never been included since he was a contractor, but some places treat all contractors as long term staff augmentation,
    regardless if there's an end date on the contract. Since he didn't
    need to interact with anyone in the department, he received bad marks. Even though his manager he reported to tried to explain the situation, some "human performance" expert wanted to interview him because they couldn't fathom this type of work relationship functioning in their
    work "culture." They informed him this would affect his share in the incentive program, which was funny because as a contractor he wasn't a participant in it!

    The metrics they choose are odd. These surveys can be biased, to look at aspects that the HR staff excel at, and neglect those that they don't. I've done them in another company, and found tha the questions were irrelevant to whether I enjoyed working here. So even though the survey results seemed good, they missed the important things and people still left.


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  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Dennisk on Tue Sep 29 21:57:52 2020
    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to HusTler on Tue Sep 29 2020 01:21 am

    Political movements are based on what people want. Their validity has nothing to do with the movement. The people believe they are right want something from their government. eg Black Lives Matter.

    People want lots of things, but you need to know how to create the condition which make it possible. Just saying you want it, or demanding it, is not enough, and often counter productive. History is full of example of people w pushed for "peace" and "mercy" and "Brotherhood" creating tyrannies because their methodology was all wrong. That is happening again today.

    I'm not sure I'm following you. People ARE getting what they want. The defunding of police is happening all over the country. Their methology was to threaten lives and burn down buildings. Don't get me wrong. This is going to come back to them (BLM) in a harsh way. In my view there's no validity that taking money away from cops is going to solve a thing. Let's see what the future brings.

    ---
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to HusTler on Wed Sep 30 05:56:00 2020
    HusTler wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Masks made simple
    By: Dennisk to HusTler on Tue Sep 29 2020 01:21 am

    Political movements are based on what people want. Their validity has nothing to do with the movement. The people believe they are right want something from their government. eg Black Lives Matter.

    People want lots of things, but you need to know how to create the condition which make it possible. Just saying you want it, or demanding it, is not enough, and often counter productive. History is full of example of people w pushed for "peace" and "mercy" and "Brotherhood" creating tyrannies because their methodology was all wrong. That is happening again today.

    I'm not sure I'm following you. People ARE getting what they want.
    The defunding of police is happening all over the country. Their
    methology was to threaten lives and burn down buildings. Don't get me wrong. This is going to come back to them (BLM) in a harsh way. In my
    view there's no validity that taking money away from cops is going to solve a thing. Let's see what the future brings.

    Of, if you referring to the ideologues, then yeah, I think your right. They have ulterior motives. But many of their supporters take them at face value, and think that good things will come from this. They refuse to see that many of these protestors are just plain evil.


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