• Re: Linux

    From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Sun Aug 2 01:26:09 2020
    Re: Re: This strange world
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 11:47 pm

    You can do that with Linux too.. You don't need to use Linux for other types of stuff if you don't want to. I've seen some computers come with Linux pre-installed..

    Edge is a web browser.. What do you mean by "if I still used web browsers"?

    Nightfox

    I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc... by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.

    I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which is only once per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Sat Aug 1 20:23:08 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 01 2020 09:26 pm

    I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc... by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.

    If you aren't a gamer, Linux would probably be fine for you. It depends on what you do with a PC. But yeah, if you really want to be able to play PC games, perhaps it would be easier to just keep using Windows. But there are Linux equivalents for many programs, and even Linux versions of some popular Windows programs. And it seems gaming is getting better for Linux - I've seen Linux versions of some popular games starting to appear, and Steam (game company) has also started supporting Linux - Steam has made SteamOS, a Linux distro for gaming, to be used on their SteamBox console. I think you can install Steam on other Linux distros too. I seem to remember also seeing some Windows games on Steam that they've packaged in a way that they can run on Linux. But if you aren't even interested in gaming, you wouldn't have to worry about that.

    In one of my previous jobs, our computing environment was totally Linux. We had all the software tools we needed for our projects we were working on, and that was back in 2003-2007.

    Many people don't really trust in Microsoft either. When Windows 10 came out, there were a lot of privacy settings that you could disable if you want, to avoid Microsoft tracking yoru location, etc.. And I sometimes still hear about how Windows 10 might be tracking you and your behavior, etc.. I've considered moving away from Windows and using Linux as my main OS at some point.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Andeddu on Sat Aug 1 22:01:42 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 01 2020 09:26 pm

    I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc... by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.

    Only if you're insistent on playing specific games or running specific programs. The majority of the steam library works as easily on Linux as on Windows. And if you're only using a web browser and word processor, there's even fewer reasons to leave yourself locked to Windows.

    The biggest reason to change is to avoid being dependent on a singular company that absolutely does NOT have your best interests at heart. That and to make computer use fun again. If you ever get the urge, there's all kinds of things to tweak, customize, or substitute in Linux. That may not be your cup of tea, but it's great for those of us for whom it is.
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    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Sun Aug 2 01:29:37 2020
    Re: Re: This strange world
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Fri Jul 31 2020 11:48 pm

    I'm not sure if I fully trust any of them, Microsoft included.

    Nightfox

    I wouldn't trust any of them with a bargepole. You don't become a trillion dollar company by being nice to customers and not squeezing them for everything they're worth. Even my beloved Apple are as guilty as the rest of them.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to MRO on Sun Aug 2 02:25:11 2020
    Re: Re: This strange world
    By: MRO to Underminer on Sat Aug 01 2020 12:16 pm

    they want to do subscription models because they want that money to keep rolling in. some of these cheap ass companies are running 20 year or older shit and still expecting support for it.

    I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 2 16:36:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Re: Re: This strange world
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 11:47 pm

    You can do that with Linux too.. You don't need to use Linux for other types of stuff if you don't want to. I've seen some computers come with Linux pre-installed..

    Edge is a web browser.. What do you mean by "if I still used web browsers"?

    Nightfox

    I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been
    lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc...
    by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.

    I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best
    damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which
    is only once per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at will.

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.

    7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.

    8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with few, if any, problems.

    9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sun Aug 2 02:16:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to MRO <=-

    Re: Re: This strange world
    By: MRO to Underminer on Sat Aug 01 2020 12:16 pm

    they want to do subscription models because they want that money to keep rolling in. some of these cheap ass companies are running 20 year or older shit and still expecting support for it.

    I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
    do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.

    And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL


    ... If it weren't for Edison we'd be using computers by candlelight
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Underminer on Sun Aug 2 04:47:50 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 06:01 pm

    The biggest reason to change is to avoid being dependent on a singular company that absolutely does NOT have your best interests at heart. That and to make computer use fun again. If you ever get the urge, there's all kinds of things to tweak, customize, or substitute in Linux. That may not be your cup of tea, but it's great for those of us for whom it is.

    I like customizability and tweaking things. But these days, I tend to like using a computer as a tool for doing things (including playing games) and getting work done, rather than using a PC just for the sake of using a PC. One of the fun parts of using a PC is using the software & tools it allows you to use.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Sun Aug 2 05:07:19 2020
    Re: Re: Microsoft, trustworthy?
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 10:16 pm

    I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
    do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.

    And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL

    I understand what you are saying, but what computer companies do you think rip you off less than Microsoft?

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Nightfox on Sun Aug 2 07:14:06 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Underminer on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:47 am

    I like customizability and tweaking things. But these days, I tend to like using a computer as a tool for doing things (including playing games) and getting work done, rather than using a PC just for the sake of using a PC.

    I hear that, and it also factors into my Linux usage. I always feel like you have to fight with Windows a lot of the time, even if it's for something as simple or stupid as the god aweful way W10 handles updates. It took some customization to get it where I wanted it, but my main desktop on Linux just... gets out of my way and lets me work. Not to mention that there's tools that have become essential in some of my workflows that either don't exist on Windows, or are a right pain in the ass to get working right.

    For the longest time I was a casual Linux user, then started playing with dual booting for a few years, then the aha moment happened when I noticed I could significantly speed up certain daily workloads in Linux. Once that happened Linux became my go to and I only booted Windows for a couple games that didn't run on Linux. Then I realized I really didn't care enough about one or two games to bother maintaining a Windows install or having to dual boot...

    These days if you see me having to use Windows for any reason other than supporting a client, you're likely to hear a string of blue language very shortly afterwards. Having to use Windows for anything irritates me, and actual use of it tends to piss me off in short order.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Underminer on Mon Aug 3 02:05:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Underminer on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:47 am

    I like customizability and tweaking things. But these days, I tend to like using a computer as a tool for doing things (including playing games) and getting work done, rather than using a PC just for the sake of using a PC.

    I hear that, and it also factors into my Linux usage. I always feel
    like you have to fight with Windows a lot of the time, even if it's for something as simple or stupid as the god aweful way W10 handles
    updates. It took some customization to get it where I wanted it, but my main desktop on Linux just... gets out of my way and lets me work. Not
    to mention that there's tools that have become essential in some of my workflows that either don't exist on Windows, or are a right pain in
    the ass to get working right.

    For the longest time I was a casual Linux user, then started playing
    with dual booting for a few years, then the aha moment happened when I noticed I could significantly speed up certain daily workloads in
    Linux. Once that happened Linux became my go to and I only booted
    Windows for a couple games that didn't run on Linux. Then I realized I really didn't care enough about one or two games to bother maintaining
    a Windows install or having to dual boot...

    These days if you see me having to use Windows for any reason other
    than supporting a client, you're likely to hear a string of blue
    language very shortly afterwards. Having to use Windows for anything irritates me, and actual use of it tends to piss me off in short order.

    I found the same too. At first, I was just using Linux versions of Windows apps, then I found backgrounding programs at the command line, CLI pipes, new workflows, being able to do this really efficiently the Linux way instead of cumbersome the Windows way. With a customisable GUI such as FVWM, you can remove most to all the convoluted GUI jockeying you do with Windows. Things like pruning spam e-mail before I download it, updates, backups, creating reports are done very quickly.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Dennisk on Sun Aug 2 13:33:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do,
    that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    I thought NTFS did that.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.

    Windows supports this, but you have to pay for Windows Server.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    I'm trying to remember if Windows Server supports this. But I don't think so.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at will.

    Not to mention that most Linux desktops support the concept of multiple desktops.

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    This was actually the same reason I dropped Windows 2000 and moved to Linux. Never looked back.

    I still use Windows, but I get paid for it. Everything at home is Linux.


    ... I'd love to, but I'm teaching my ferret to yodel.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Sun Aug 2 13:51:00 2020
    Hello Underminer!

    ** On Sunday 02.08.20 - 05:14, underminer wrote to Nightfox:


    [[..]] It took some customization to get it where I wanted it, but my
    main desktop on Linux just... gets out of my way and lets me work. Not
    to mention that there's tools that have become essential in some of my workflows that either don't exist on Windows, or are a right pain in
    the ass to get working right.

    What are the tools that don't exist in Windows? But I hear ya, the *nix environment can provide a wealth options in the command line. Are there gui-based progs in Linux for which there are no Win equivalents?

    It's funny that the conversation was almost always about finding the Linux equivalents of Win program (to appease Win users that Linux is a fine alternative) rather than the other way around.


    For the longest time I was a casual Linux user, then started playing
    with dual booting for a few years, then the aha moment happened when I noticed I could significantly speed up certain daily workloads in
    Linux. Once that happened Linux became my go to and I only booted
    Windows for a couple games that didn't run on Linux. Then I realized I really didn't care enough about one or two games to bother maintaining
    a Windows install or having to dual boot...

    Sounds like you went through a very natural process from Win to Linux.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Sun Aug 2 14:08:00 2020
    Hello Dennisk!

    ** On Sunday 02.08.20 - 23:05, dennisk wrote to Underminer:

    [[snip]] being able to do this really efficiently the Linux way instead
    of cumbersome the Windows way. With a customisable GUI such as FVWM,
    you can remove most to all the convoluted GUI jockeying you do with
    Windows. Things like pruning spam e-mail before I download it,
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Yes.. Window itself doesn't provide that. But there was a command line
    way that I used to check email headers to accomplish that. I don't
    remember the details. From the headers I could see who was sending what
    and see if there were any attachments. Being on dialup made this a
    necessity, and almost fun to use.

    Later, 3rd party programs like MailWasher fit the bill and where a bit
    easier to use.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Sun Aug 2 11:43:00 2020
    Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Microsoft, trustworthy?
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 10:16 pm

    I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
    do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.

    And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL

    I understand what you are saying, but what computer companies do
    you think rip you off less than Microsoft?

    Well, I guess I can't name any, largely because I don't deal with
    any "computer companies". I am 100% Linux and use only free /
    open-source software.

    Also my above comment probably included my (admittedly biased)
    view that besides over-pricing their products, MS also tends to
    "phone home" / spy on it's users quite a bit, and that is a big
    no-no to me.



    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dennisk on Sun Aug 2 12:02:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-

    I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been
    lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc...
    by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.

    I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best
    damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which
    is only once per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can
    do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming,
    automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer,
    run programs, check e-mail.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between
    them at will.

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking
    licensing terms.

    7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.

    8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine
    with few, if any, problems.

    9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of
    it.

    Nice list and all true. One other big one I'd add is that you
    don't need to worry about virus problems (and install/run/update
    antivirus software which slows your computer down).

    To paraphrase the OP up there at the top of the post - I don't
    know why I (or anyone) would use Windows over Linux. For me,
    there are just *NO* reasons to do so.


    ... Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sun Aug 2 12:50:16 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 01 2020 09:26 pm

    Re: Re: This strange world
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 11:47 pm

    You can do that with Linux too.. You don't need to use Linux for other types of stuff if you don't want to. I've seen some computers come with Linux pre-installed..

    Edge is a web browser.. What do you mean by "if I still used web browser

    Nightfox

    I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc... by using Linux Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.

    I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which is only on per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.


    I don't know why I would be using Windows over anything else except for a small set of scenarios, but to each his own.

    You have to be a bit more careful when picking desktop hardware when working with Linux, but once you are past that, the software is usually more responsive, the whole thing is easier to secure up, mass deployments and backups become easier, and you can actually patch nearly anything you don't like.

    There used to be problems with games and professional programs, but with steam porting so many games to Linux, and lots of professional programs turning into web applications, it is becoming less of a problem. Yesterday you had to install medical imaging software in the workstation. Today, the medical imaging software runs on a LAMP or OAMP server and you have thin clients access it.

    If you want something that is actually hard to run as a desktop, try OpenBSD. And even that one is getting easier to operate out of the server room.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Gamgee on Sun Aug 2 13:03:48 2020
    Re: Re: Microsoft, trustworthy?
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sun Aug 02 2020 07:43 am

    I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
    do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.

    And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL

    I understand what you are saying, but what computer companies do
    you think rip you off less than Microsoft?

    Well, I guess I can't name any, largely because I don't deal with
    any "computer companies". I am 100% Linux and use only free /
    open-source software.

    It is funny you say that. Linux is actually a corporative product.

    Just have a look at who is providing code and funding. Even minority unices like OpenBSD get huge injections of funding from big corporations such as Microsoft.

    Oracle used to be the biggest GPL licensor in the world and I think it still is.


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Arelor on Sun Aug 2 13:44:05 2020
    Re: Re: Microsoft, trustworthy?
    By: Arelor to Gamgee on Sun Aug 02 2020 09:03 am

    Re: Re: Microsoft, trustworthy?
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sun Aug 02 2020 07:43 am

    I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
    do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.

    And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL

    I understand what you are saying, but what computer companies do
    you think rip you off less than Microsoft?

    Well, I guess I can't name any, largely because I don't deal with
    any "computer companies". I am 100% Linux and use only free / open-source software.

    It is funny you say that. Linux is actually a corporative product.

    Just have a look at who is providing code and funding. Even minority unices like OpenBSD get huge injections of funding from big corporations such as Microsoft.

    Oracle used to be the biggest GPL licensor in the world and I think it still is.


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es


    I think this is missing the point slightly, while it's true that the Linux Foundation is taking shitloads of cash from corporations that may or may not steer the development of the kernel their way (it probably is). You're still not dealing with "computer companies" the same way that you'd have to deal with them should you run Windows or Microsoft Office. The Free Software nature of the kernel allows freedom for other people to use and develop their own offshoots of the current mainline kernel should they wish (the same applies to *BSD) without any intervention from these "computer companies".
    -*- a small site: atroxi.neocities.org -*-

    ---
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  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Dr. What on Sun Aug 2 18:22:00 2020
    On 02 Aug 2020, Dr. What said the following...

    ... I'd love to, but I'm teaching my ferret to yodel.

    This made me LOL.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/06/11 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 2 17:15:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 01 2020 09:26 pm

    Re: Re: This strange world
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Jul 31 2020 11:47 pm

    You can do that with Linux too.. You don't need to use Linux for other types of stuff if you don't want to. I've seen some computers come with Linux pre-installed..

    Edge is a web browser.. What do you mean by "if I still used web browser

    Nightfox

    I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc... by using Linux Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.

    I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which is only on per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.

    If you're not into hardware intensive gaming, a linux box serves the same purpose a Windows or Mac box does. If you already use Firefox, Chrome, or Libre Office, the learning curve is slight for small changes in function or appearance. Several open source programs are ported to linux, windows and
    mac, so the platform they rin on means less.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Ogg on Sun Aug 2 17:00:47 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Ogg to All on Sun Aug 02 2020 09:51 am

    [[..]] It took some customization to get it where I wanted it, but my
    main desktop on Linux just... gets out of my way and lets me work.
    Not to mention that there's tools that have become essential in some
    of my workflows that either don't exist on Windows, or are a right
    pain in the ass to get working right.

    What are the tools that don't exist in Windows? But I hear ya, the *nix environment can provide a wealth options in the command line. Are there gui-based progs in Linux for which there are no Win equivalents?

    I'm not sure what workflows he uses, but in *nix operating systems, the set of GNU command-line tools can be very useful such as grep, sed, etc. Those are not included in Windows by default, but there are Windows command-line versions that can be downloaded and installed.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Sun Aug 2 21:16:05 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 04:23 pm

    If you aren't a gamer, Linux would probably be fine for you. It depends on what you do with a PC. But yeah, if you really want to be able to play PC games, perhaps it would be easier to just keep using Windows.

    Therein lies the problem. I ONLY use the PC for games. I've historically used the PC for media, university work, etc... however, gaming is all I use my home computer for now. I have never used any other OS other than Windows at home or work so I am completely ignorant of the alternatives, which is for good reason as I only play games :P.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Underminer on Sun Aug 2 21:33:27 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 06:01 pm

    Only if you're insistent on playing specific games or running specific programs. The majority of the steam library works as easily on Linux as on Windows. And if you're only using a web browser and word processor, there's even fewer reasons to leave yourself locked to Windows.

    The biggest reason to change is to avoid being dependent on a singular company that absolutely does NOT have your best interests at heart. That and to make computer use fun again. If you ever get the urge, there's all kinds of things to tweak, customize, or substitute in Linux. That may not be your cup of tea, but it's great for those of us for whom it is.

    Perhaps if I were a heavy PC user I would give something like Linux a try. I don't think that the current iteration of Windows 10 is particularly bad... if we went back to something akin to Windows Vista, I'd be checking right out of the Windows enviroment. I have a high end laptop with an 8th Gen i7, heaps of RAM (more than I'll ever need) and a lighting quick SSD. Windows is as smooth as butter and only takes me around 5 seconds to load from pressing the power button. I know Microsoft do not have our interests at heart, but I am not invested in their products... I use Windows to play games and browse the internet, I have already paid for Windows so they're not going to get another red dime out of me.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Sun Aug 2 21:57:11 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at will.

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.

    7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.

    8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with few, if any, problems.

    9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.


    That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those who require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. It's a n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will have to have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much that can go wrong.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Sun Aug 2 22:19:09 2020
    Re: Re: Microsoft, trustworthy?
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 10:16 pm

    And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL

    Windows 10 was pre-installed when I purchased my laptop... I didn't purchase the serial key seperately and I will not be purchasing any of their applications in the meantime.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Dr. What on Sun Aug 2 18:14:49 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dr. What to Dennisk on Sun Aug 02 2020 09:33 am

    repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.
    I thought NTFS did that.

    NTFS will do parts of that, but not the whole kit. EXT4 is more flexible, and once you get into things like btrfs or zfs there's just absolutely no contest.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer,
    Windows supports this, but you have to pay for Windows Server.

    On the server side, but you're still limited to RDP or configuring your own VNC for workstations, and even powershell can be a little limited sometimes if you're used to bash.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.
    I'm trying to remember if Windows Server supports this. But I don't think

    You can have a couple users on Server at once, but for the most part it only really supports it with Terminal Services, and that's a fair $$ upgrade and only really makes sense if you're running thin clients or remote workers in the mix.

    I still use Windows, but I get paid for it. Everything at home is Linux.

    Likewise... with the exception that I do still have one Windows server for Exchange mailboxing, and until a couple weeks ago my BBS was also running on a Windows box. Now everything both at home and in my business is Linux save for the one Exchange server.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Ogg on Sun Aug 2 18:22:42 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Ogg to All on Sun Aug 02 2020 09:51 am

    What are the tools that don't exist in Windows? But I hear ya, the *nix environment can provide a wealth options in the command line. Are there gui-based progs in Linux for which there are no Win equivalents?

    There's several, but right off the top of my head Rsync, Cron, Thunar (specifically custom actions - you can do SOME customization that way in Windows, but it's very limited and an extreme PITA comparatively), and proper package management. Not to mention the utility found in bash scripting compared to trying to do anything similar with a batch file - and you can easily set said bash scripts up to take variables thrown by your custom action in Thunar (file explorer) to process files or folders in any number of ways.

    There's a multitude of others, but I might have to think a bit on some of them. Suffice it to say that as I started discovering ways to ease my common workflows in Linux my life got easier, and Windows felt more cumbersome with each discovery.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Atroxi on Sun Aug 2 18:29:38 2020
    Re: Re: Microsoft, trustworthy?
    By: Atroxi to Arelor on Sun Aug 02 2020 09:44 am

    Foundation is taking shitloads of cash from corporations that may or may not steer the development of the kernel their way (it probably is). You're to deal with them should you run Windows or Microsoft Office. The Free Software nature of the kernel allows freedom for other people to use and develop their own offshoots of the current mainline kernel should they

    Precisely. You or I can submit a change to the Kernel and have a relatively good chance it'll be picked up - no chance of that with Microsoft or other actual companies. And if we really don't like the direction things are going, forking happens all the time on projects in the free sphere.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Arelor on Sun Aug 2 19:19:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I don't trust any multinational trillion dollar company. I just
    do my best to support the ones that rip me off the least.

    And you include Micro$haft in that category...? LOL

    I understand what you are saying, but what computer companies do
    you think rip you off less than Microsoft?

    Well, I guess I can't name any, largely because I don't deal with
    any "computer companies". I am 100% Linux and use only free /
    open-source software.

    It is funny you say that. Linux is actually a corporative
    product.

    Just have a look at who is providing code and funding. Even
    minority unices like OpenBSD get huge injections of funding from
    big corporations such as Microsoft.

    Oracle used to be the biggest GPL licensor in the world and I
    think it still is.

    Yeah, that may all be true, but I don't see it as the same thing.
    It's not like MS dictating to me when/how I will apply OS updates,
    whether I want to or not. It's not like MS charging me hundreds
    of dollars for the privilege of renting their software for a
    while. It's not like being a slave to antivirus software hassling
    me and slowing down my computer. It's not like Windoze software
    throwing a glitch and locking my computer (or BSOD'ing), with no
    way for me to know why it happened or how to prevent it happening
    in the future. You get the idea...



    ... Windows 3.1 - From the people who brought you EDLIN.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Andeddu on Sun Aug 2 18:54:10 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:57 pm

    web. It's a n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will have to have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much that can go wrong.

    There's distros like PopOS! that are very newby and granny friendly, too. It's just there's still a LOT of power under the hood should you decide you want to start tweaking.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Sun Aug 2 18:58:57 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:16 pm

    If you aren't a gamer, Linux would probably be fine for you. It
    depends on what you do with a PC. But yeah, if you really want to be
    able to play PC games, perhaps it would be easier to just keep using
    Windows.

    Therein lies the problem. I ONLY use the PC for games. I've historically used the PC for media, university work, etc... however, gaming is all I use my home computer for now. I have never used any other OS other than Windows at home or work so I am completely ignorant of the alternatives, which is for good reason as I only play games :P.

    Interesting.. I've always used my PC for a lot more than just games. And actually, these days, I don't play PC games nearly as often as I used to.. I also use my computer for keeping track of my finances (I've been using Microsoft Money for that for a long time), software development, photo & video editing, general-purpose things like web browsing, email, etc., and lots of stuff. Many times, I just like using something with a real keyboard too, as well as a bigger screen than what's available with a smartphone or a tablet.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sun Aug 2 21:18:49 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:57 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repa and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at wil

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.

    7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.

    8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with fe if any, problems.

    9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.


    That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those who require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. It' n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will have have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much t can go wrong.


    I think a lot of the reputation Windows has for being easy to use is that it comes preinstalled with wintel hardware. Lots of people who boast how easy it is to manage a Windows install would not be able to actually install it, identify the hardware, track the drivers etc. Which happens to be the hard part of installing Linux, mostly.

    Most popular Linux distributions are actually very low maintenance. Once you set them up you can pretty much forget about them. Then there is Gentoo and Arch and the like, but if you are running those you either know what you want out of it, or you are a poser XD


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Sun Aug 2 20:30:30 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:18 pm

    I think a lot of the reputation Windows has for being easy to use is that it comes preinstalled with wintel hardware. Lots of people who boast how easy it is to manage a Windows install would not be able to actually install it, identify the hardware, track the drivers etc. Which happens to be the hard part of installing Linux, mostly.

    I suppose most computer users these days probably haven't installed the OS themselves.

    For Linux, I've actually had most Linux installs go fairly smoothly for me, at least in recent years. For quite a while, it has seemed like there are are Linux drivers for a lot of common PC hardware, and many Linux distributions have been able to detect pretty much everything in the (few) PCs I've installed it on. I might only have to go download a (proprietary) Nvidia driver or something, but I think many Linux distros work fairly well out of the box. I did a fresh re-install of Linux Mint 19.3 on my BBS machine in December and it went very smoothly and even detected my PCI Express wifi network card. I'm using the Intel onboard CPU graphics on that machine, and it seems to be working without any additional graphics drivers. I suppose I could check to see if Intel has any specific graphics driver that might offer a performance improvement..
    I've since run the update on that PC to update it to Mint 20, and it's working fairly well.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Dr. What on Mon Aug 3 14:29:00 2020
    Dr. What wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do,
    that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    I thought NTFS did that.

    The Shadow Copy features add some support it seems, but not as flexible. (ie,its a filesystem level snapshot and has more limitations). I'm not aware of NTFS checksumming and autocorrecting file data, I may be wrong.

    It has evolved a bit since I last looked at it.

    What I can do with BTRFS is selectively snapshot directories, and replicate via send/receive a snapshot by sending the delta to another disk. I do this with the family photos, which are on a "Raid 1" volume, which are actually two partitions on two hard drives combined into one. I keep a backup on another hard drive, which I can keep up to date by btrfs send/receive. Perhaps overkill, but its nice to be able to have access to these next-gen methods.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.

    Windows supports this, but you have to pay for Windows Server.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    I'm trying to remember if Windows Server supports this. But I don't
    think so.

    It probably would, but its not a core feature. Admittedly it is not a feature I use often, but I have in the past where I let my sister log into my computer usng her own accounter, from her older computer. What she had was a boot disk, which would load a kernel over the network, create a thin client and connect to my computer. Quite handy as it allowed her to browse the web on a fast machine (mine), even though hers was slow and not connected to the modem.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at will.

    Not to mention that most Linux desktops support the concept of multiple desktops.

    Multiple desktops are nice, but I end up not using them much. The ability to choose my own GUI matters more, as I am free to interact with the computer as per my vision, not the vision a company wants me to adopt.

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    This was actually the same reason I dropped Windows 2000 and moved to Linux. Never looked back.

    I still use Windows, but I get paid for it. Everything at home is
    Linux.

    There is, vice versa, things that Windows can do that Linux can't, such as run many AAA games natively, good backwards compatibility and driver support. However, for my on personal use, the advantages that Linux offers matter more to me and I don't really play many games, and don't have only basic hardware and perpherals.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Gamgee on Mon Aug 3 14:35:00 2020
    Gamgee wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-

    I don't know why I would use Linux over Windows. As far as I've been
    lead to believe, you may have compatibility issues with games, etc...
    by using Linux. Overcoming those issues would be work for nothing.

    I mean, the only browser I use on a daily basis is Safari (the best
    damn browser in the world). Edge is only used when I am on my PC which
    is only once per week - and I am not there to browse the internet, I am there to game.

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can
    do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming,
    automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer,
    run programs, check e-mail.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between
    them at will.

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking
    licensing terms.

    7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.

    8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine
    with few, if any, problems.

    9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of
    it.

    Nice list and all true. One other big one I'd add is that you
    don't need to worry about virus problems (and install/run/update
    antivirus software which slows your computer down).

    To paraphrase the OP up there at the top of the post - I don't
    know why I (or anyone) would use Windows over Linux. For me,
    there are just *NO* reasons to do so.

    If you are a gamer, and you buy any hardware and want it to work, that is a reason to use Windows. Viruses and rootkits are still a problem, just not as much. I've never had one that I know about (though a false report here and there, which I'm pretty sure was false).

    Linux isn't immune, just a bit better in that regard.

    The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users. That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS", locked down.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 3 14:56:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repair and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at will.

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.

    7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.

    8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with few, if any, problems.

    9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.


    That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those who require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. It's a n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I
    think users will have to have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much that can go wrong.

    The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.

    The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux. I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installation wasn't as smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Arelor on Mon Aug 3 23:21:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:57 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repa and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at wil

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.

    7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.

    8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with fe if any, problems.

    9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.


    That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those who require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. It' n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will have have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much t can go wrong.


    I think a lot of the reputation Windows has for being easy to use is
    that it comes preinstalled with wintel hardware. Lots of people who
    boast how easy it is to manage a Windows install would not be able to actually install it, identify the hardware, track the drivers etc.
    Which happens to be the hard part of installing Linux, mostly.

    Most popular Linux distributions are actually very low maintenance.
    Once you set them up you can pretty much forget about them. Then there
    is Gentoo and Arch and the like, but if you are running those you
    either know what you want out of it, or you are a poser XD


    I had a Linux distro that I installed in 2001 or 2002, and I used it all the way until 2009. I updated software here and there, manually, build programs for souce, but I never did a full update. It just worked, and I *STILL* have that machine, and it still just works,

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Underminer on Mon Aug 3 23:23:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Ogg <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Ogg to All on Sun Aug 02 2020 09:51 am

    What are the tools that don't exist in Windows? But I hear ya, the *nix environment can provide a wealth options in the command line. Are there gui-based progs in Linux for which there are no Win equivalents?

    There's several, but right off the top of my head Rsync, Cron, Thunar (specifically custom actions - you can do SOME customization that way
    in Windows, but it's very limited and an extreme PITA comparatively),
    and proper package management. Not to mention the utility found in bash scripting compared to trying to do anything similar with a batch file - and you can easily set said bash scripts up to take variables thrown by your custom action in Thunar (file explorer) to process files or
    folders in any number of ways.

    There's a multitude of others, but I might have to think a bit on some
    of them. Suffice it to say that as I started discovering ways to ease
    my common workflows in Linux my life got easier, and Windows felt more cumbersome with each discovery. ---
    = Synchronet = The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423

    You can combine a BASH script with the Unix tools, and do a lot more on top of that. Admittedly, its the kind of thing only a tinkerer would worry about, but once you realise what you can do, you can't turn back. I often wonder about people who write software for a living, but have computers at home that are just cumbersome with complex workflows.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Nightfox on Mon Aug 3 23:59:00 2020
    On 08-02-20 13:00, Nightfox wrote to Ogg <=-

    I'm not sure what workflows he uses, but in *nix operating systems, the set of GNU command-line tools can be very useful such as grep, sed,
    etc. Those are not included in Windows by default, but there are
    Windows command-line versions that can be downloaded and installed.

    For me there's also the functionality built into the Bash shell itself, which I make extensive use of.


    ... Error: Windows not found. Use Real Operating System(Y/y)?
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Mon Aug 3 10:38:07 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Sun Aug 02 2020 04:30 pm

    I suppose most computer users these days probably haven't installed the OS themselves.

    For Linux, I've actually had most Linux installs go fairly smoothly for me, least in recent years. For quite a while, it has seemed like there are are Linux drivers for a lot of common PC hardware, and many Linux distributions have been able to detect pretty much everything in the (few) PCs I've instal it on. I might only have to go download a (proprietary) Nvidia driver or something, but I think many Linux distros work fairly well out of the box. did a fresh re-install of Linux Mint 19.3 on my BBS machine in December and went very smoothly and even detected my PCI Express wifi network card. I'm using the Intel onboard CPU graphics on that machine, and it seems to be working without any additional graphics drivers. I suppose I could check to see if Intel has any specific graphics driver that might offer a performance improvement..
    I've since run the update on that PC to update it to Mint 20, and it's worki fairly well.

    Nightfox

    Yup, Linux is usually easy to install and get running. NOow, installing it and getting properly adapted to the hardware... you usually need the GPU kernel modules and to account for things such as Optimus, which are real battery killers if left unchecked. Some networks adapters need specific firmware that is not available from the installer, or you get a gelded version. You get the idea.

    Also, I usually throw extra fun in because I try to purchase hardware that has good FOSS support so I don't need propietary drivers of modules. It sucks when the vendor drops support for your GPU and you don't get modules for modern kernels anymore.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Mon Aug 3 13:23:36 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Mon Aug 03 2020 06:38 am

    Also, I usually throw extra fun in because I try to purchase hardware that has good FOSS support so I don't need propietary drivers of modules. It sucks when the vendor drops support for your GPU and you don't get modules for modern kernels anymore.

    If you want a dedicated graphics card though, there isn't much choice these days between something that uses a chip from Nvidia or AMD (formerly ATI). I think onboard CPU graphics from Intel is probably fairly well supported in Linux though. And I'm not sure if AMD's processors still have onboard graphics in them.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 3 14:12:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:16 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Sat Aug 01 2020 04:23 pm

    If you aren't a gamer, Linux would probably be fine for you. It depends what you do with a PC. But yeah, if you really want to be able to play P games, perhaps it would be easier to just keep using Windows.

    Therein lies the problem. I ONLY use the PC for games. I've historically use the PC for media, university work, etc... however, gaming is all I use my ho computer for now. I have never used any other OS other than Windows at home work so I am completely ignorant of the alternatives, which is for good reas as I only play games :P.


    A great way to learn linux without disturbing your main computing rig is to
    buy a single board computer such as a Raspberry Pi and install the Raspberry
    Pi OS (formerly Raspbian) or another ARM-based linux distribution,
    preferrably Debian-based. Manjaro is a bit more complex under the hood
    (Arch).

    A Pi4 can be had for about $50 for the 4gb model. Be sure to add the
    heatsink kit and a fan, though. Set it up to connect through VNC and access
    it through VNC viewer installed on your Windows box. There are times when I doing research or looking for data on older DOS programs, and some o fthe abandonware sites looks sketchy. I'd rather browse those sites with Firefox
    or Chromium on the Pi4 rather than risk my Windows box.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 3 14:24:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:57 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, that Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic repa and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at wil

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.

    7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.

    8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with fe if any, problems.

    9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.


    That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those who require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. It' n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will have have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold your hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as it "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not much t can go wrong.

    The makers of distributions have made great gains with making linux install without a hitch for most modern hardware. I agree the disclaimer there may
    be issues, but that's not as critical as it used to be.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Mon Aug 3 15:29:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:18 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Sun Aug 02 2020 05:57 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 12:36 pm

    I can think of many, many reasons. Here are a few things I can do, th Windows users cannot do, or cannot do easily.

    1) Run a filesystem that supports snapshots, checksumming, automatic r and combining multiple devices into one volume.

    2) Access the machine remotely via SSH and be able to administer, run programs, check e-mail.

    3) Run multiple users simultaneously.

    4) Choose my own GUI and desktop environment. Switch between them at

    5) Not be spied upon or have my OS "phone home".

    6) Install Linux on whatever machine I like without breaking licensing terms.

    7) Get an OS and upgrades for free.

    8) Update the hardware, or move the hard drive to another machine with if any, problems.

    9) Run it on older hardware, configure and change every aspect of it.


    That's a comprehensive list. Obviously Linux has its benefits for those w require their systems to do more than just play games or browse the web. n open and free OS which I can see has its benefits. I think users will h have some knowledge about computers though... Linux is unlikely to hold y hand in the same way Windows does. Very little can go wrong in Windows as "looks after" you. As long as you don't download a virus, there's not muc can go wrong.


    I think a lot of the reputation Windows has for being easy to use is that it comes preinstalled with wintel hardware. Lots of people who boast how easy i is to manage a Windows install would not be able to actually install it, identify the hardware, track the drivers etc. Which happens to be the hard p of installing Linux, mostly.

    Most popular Linux distributions are actually very low maintenance. Once you set them up you can pretty much forget about them. Then there is Gentoo and Arch and the like, but if you are running those you either know what you wan out of it, or you are a poser XD


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es


    The Cult of the Mac is also happy because of the amount of driver tweaking
    that is done by Apple engineers to squeeze the most performance out of their OS.

    The more popular linux distros have a large support following and if a driver is needed, it eventually appears.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Mon Aug 3 20:13:08 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 01:15 pm

    If you're not into hardware intensive gaming, a linux box serves the same purpose a Windows or Mac box does. If you already use Firefox, Chrome, or Libre Office, the learning curve is slight for small changes in function or appearance. Several open source programs are ported to linux, windows and mac, so the platform they rin on means less.

    I am ONLY into hardware intensive gaming.

    I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Microsoft hold the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to ever change, but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use should Windows ever become too oppressive.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Mon Aug 3 20:54:05 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 02:58 pm

    Interesting.. I've always used my PC for a lot more than just games. And actually, these days, I don't play PC games nearly as often as I used to..
    I also use my computer for keeping track of my finances (I've been using Microsoft Money for that for a long time), software development, photo & video editing, general-purpose things like web browsing, email, etc., and lots of stuff. Many times, I just like using something with a real keyboard too, as well as a bigger screen than what's available with a smartphone or a tablet.


    The virtual keyboard on my iPad Mini 5 is very responsive and almost as good as a physical keyboard. I do 95% of all my browsing either on my iPad or iPhone. The gaming laptop I have has only Steam, EA Origins, UPlay, Battle.NET and Epic Store installed. I don't even have a proper word processor & haven't activated my trial of Microsoft Word. It's a gaming system through and through. All photo taking/editing can be done on my iPhone as the default software is fairly powerful... I have no intrerest in esoteric PC centric software or development of any kind, nor do I have any knowldge or ability in that field.

    This is likely why I am fairly satisfied with Windows. It runs all my games with zero issue along with the nVidia GeForce driver update software. I have NO other use for my PC other than Skype (which I use when playing games with my friend). I have gotten rid of all the ASUS ROG bloatware so all I am left with is my gaming clients, games and default Windows software along with a CPU tuning utility... it's a very simple setup.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Mon Aug 3 22:49:03 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:56 am

    The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.

    The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux. I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installation wasn't as smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.

    I just want an easy life. I have no need, no impetus, no requirement to go looking elsewhere when all my needs are catered for. I don't think I would be able to leave Windows easily even if I wanted to... ASUS use a Republic of Gamers overlay which keeps all my ASUS drivers up-to-date including the BIOS. Losing that would create more work for me. As I am lead to believe, Windows is the far superior platform for AAA gaming as it is what developers specifically develop their games for. There's a cost/benefit to using either Windows or Linux. A lot of users here use Linux, but they use their PCs for a lot more than simply gaming.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Mon Aug 3 19:52:34 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Mon Aug 03 2020 09:23 am

    If you want a dedicated graphics card though, there isn't much choice these days between something that uses a chip from Nvidia or AMD (formerly ATI). think onboard CPU graphics from Intel is probably fairly well supported in Linux though. And I'm not sure if AMD's processors still have onboard graph in them.

    Nightfox

    Intel's onboard graphics usually work very well with Linux and OpenBSD. For the sort of thing I do with a computer, I am very likely to stick with a configuration that features one of those.

    AMD/ATI has enough FOSS support for lots of their cards as to consider them a fine choice imo. My main workstation came with an nvidia back in the day and I ended up replacing it with an AMD once nvidia dropped support for it. I am not a GPU hunter, but I was starting to get bad performance with modern video codecs with my old nvidia.

    Also, the motherboard has an nvidia chipset that does not play well with OpenBSD. I'd be running OpenBSD instead of Slackware on this thing otherwise.

    Both Theo de Raad and Linus have strong opinions about nvidia, no wonder why :-P


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Mon Aug 3 20:18:34 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:13 pm

    I am ONLY into hardware intensive gaming.

    I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Microsoft h the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to ever change but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use should Windows e become too oppressive.

    You maintain that mobile devices are eating the PC market alive. That'd be iOS and Android eating Windows alive if true.

    On the other hand, Microsoft has basically thrown the towel and is actually selling Linux industrial solutions, because Unix-like stuff has basically "won" for datacenters and containers.

    Windows will be around for long, but it is no longer the unbeatable giant it used to be. No wonder Microsoft is investing heavily in other fields nowadays. Such as railway companies :-P


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Nightfox on Mon Aug 3 22:27:10 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Mon Aug 03 2020 09:23 am

    ATI). I think onboard CPU graphics from Intel is probably fairly well supported in Linux though. And I'm not sure if AMD's processors still have onboard graphics in them.

    Yes, Intel graphics work great under Linux in my experience, and it depends on the AMD processor as to whether there's onboard graphics or not. Generally any of the offerings ending in G do, and those ending in X do not.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Tue Aug 4 04:55:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:56 am

    The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.

    The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux. I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installation wasn't as smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.

    I just want an easy life. I have no need, no impetus, no requirement to
    go looking elsewhere when all my needs are catered for. I don't think I would be able to leave Windows easily even if I wanted to... ASUS use a Republic of Gamers overlay which keeps all my ASUS drivers up-to-date including the BIOS. Losing that would create more work for me. As I am lead to believe, Windows is the far superior platform for AAA gaming as
    it is what developers specifically develop their games for. There's a cost/benefit to using either Windows or Linux. A lot of users here use Linux, but they use their PCs for a lot more than simply gaming.

    What is odd is that I use Linux for the same reason! I want an easier life, not to be bothered, and most of all, not have to change the way I do things or interact or be imposed upon. I liked the fact I could install Linux once, and it would run, and I wouldn't have to go through the format/reinstall cycle that Windows (at least back then) needed you to do. I can't be bothered setting up a fresh system, nor do I want my customisations to disappear or learn a new UI I didn't choose. So with Linux, I can install once, and by my selection of GUI and software, I can stick to my tried and true habits. Somtimes it take a little tweaking to keep things the same, but at least the option is there. I get why you would stay with windows, but I find it intersting that I have a similar need.

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years and more ago.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Mon Aug 3 23:19:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Mon Aug 03 2020 09:23 am

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Mon Aug 03 2020 06:38 am

    Also, I usually throw extra fun in because I try to purchase hardware t has good FOSS support so I don't need propietary drivers of modules. It sucks when the vendor drops support for your GPU and you don't get modu for modern kernels anymore.

    If you want a dedicated graphics card though, there isn't much choice these t sure if AMD's processors still have onboard graphics in them.

    Nightfox


    AMD is still adding video to it's cpu's

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Mon Aug 3 23:04:49 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:54 pm

    The virtual keyboard on my iPad Mini 5 is very responsive and almost as good as a physical keyboard. I do 95% of all my browsing either on my iPad or iPhone. The gaming laptop I have has only Steam, EA Origins, UPlay, Battle.NET and Epic Store installed. I don't even have a proper word processor & haven't activated my trial of Microsoft Word. It's a gaming system through and through. All photo taking/editing can be done on my iPhone as the default software is fairly powerful... I have no intrerest in esoteric PC centric software or development of any kind, nor do I have any knowldge or ability in that field.

    I just don't find a virtual keyboard good enough for how I type. One major thing is that I like tactile feedback (which is essential for touch-typing).

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Mon Aug 3 23:10:37 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Mon Aug 03 2020 03:52 pm

    Intel's onboard graphics usually work very well with Linux and OpenBSD. For the sort of thing I do with a computer, I am very likely to stick with a configuration that features one of those.

    AMD/ATI has enough FOSS support for lots of their cards as to consider them a fine choice imo. My main workstation came with an nvidia back in the day and I ended up replacing it with an AMD once nvidia dropped support for it. I am not a GPU hunter, but I was starting to get bad performance with modern video codecs with my old nvidia.

    Also, the motherboard has an nvidia chipset that does not play well with OpenBSD. I'd be running OpenBSD instead of Slackware on this thing otherwise.

    Both Theo de Raad and Linus have strong opinions about nvidia, no wonder why :-P

    I always used to hear Nvidia had good driver support for Linux, even if it was closed-soruce. I had used Nvidia cards with Linux in the past and had fairly good luck with them. I found ATI cards worked too, with just a couple more steps to install their drivers.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Mon Aug 3 23:12:05 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Mon Aug 03 2020 07:19 pm

    If you want a dedicated graphics card though, there isn't much choice
    these t sure if AMD's processors still have onboard graphics in them.

    AMD is still adding video to it's cpu's

    When AMD bought ATI, I heard they were integrating some of that graphics in their CPUs. I know some of their CPUs still have integrated graphics, but from what I've read, many of their higher-end CPUs don't have integrated graphics these days, or AMD users just tend to buy a dedicated graphics card. I was looking at an AMD site just today, and it looked like their highest-end Ryzen processors don't have integrated graphics (though they have some that do).

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Tue Aug 4 02:24:00 2020
    Hello Dennisk!

    ** On Tuesday 04.08.20 - 01:55, dennisk wrote to Andeddu:

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse.

    Maybe that is their joy or hobby. Maybe they have another pc that they
    don't change.


    In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was
    5 years and more ago.

    I can't imagine changing distros and relearning all the subtleties of the
    new distro. I would get more joy by getting totally familiar with one
    kind of environment so that I can get on with "work".

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Dennisk on Tue Aug 4 00:22:28 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 12:55 am

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years and more ago.

    Yeah, but if you have your home directory on a separate disk or partition, you're not losing or setting EVERYTHING up with every change - another nicety over Windows. I don't distro hop myself, but I can understand the appeal for some. I stick to arch on my main rig, and a mix of Debian and Centos elsewhere for the most part.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dennisk on Mon Aug 3 11:44:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Gamgee <=-

    The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux,
    developers will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all
    the new users. That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of
    choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but
    with a limited audience, there is less impetus for software and
    hardware support. But if it were to get more users, and better
    software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect
    "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS", locked down.

    I have to disagree with some of that. That's the whole point of
    Linux (and open-source software). It's open-source and
    won't/can't be locked down. "Power users" don't really need much
    "support" from their distro of choice, that's why they're power
    users. Once you've installed and are using your distro of choice,
    what else do you need from "the distro"?



    ... Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Tue Aug 4 02:09:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-

    I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know
    Microsoft hold the largest marketshare in the OS business, which
    is unlikely to ever change, but it's nice to know that there's
    something else I can use should Windows ever become too
    oppressive.

    Heh. It became too oppressive a couple of decades ago, IMHO.



    ... Windows 3.1 - From the people who brought you EDLIN.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Tue Aug 4 02:13:01 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:13 pm

    I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Microsoft hold the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to ever change, but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use should Windows ever become too oppressive.

    There are other lesser-known alternatives too, and there have been in the past too. In the mid-late 80s, there were also other computer systems on the market competing with PCs & Windows, such as the Amiga, Mac (of course), and other PC operating systems and environments such as OS/2 (from IBM), GeoWorks, and I think some others too. Many of those went away in the 90s due to Microsoft's dominance with Windows. But also, the 90s is when Linux started up. In the 90s, there was also another company called Be, Inc. that made an operating system called BeOS:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS
    BeOS was originally developed for Be, Inc.'s own computer, the BeBox, which used a PowerPC processor. Be, Inc. was started by Jean-Louis Gasse, who used to work at Apple. I heard BeOS was a contender to replace the classic MacOS, before Apple ended up buying NeXT and using NeXT as the basis for OS X.

    BeOS was later ported to Intel PCs, and they sold a version for PC compatibles using Intel and AMD processors. I bought a copy of BeOS 4.5 around 1998 or 1999; I actually thought it looked promising, and it had great multi-tasking. But it still couldn't compete with Windows.

    Now, there is an open-source re-creation of BeOS called Haiku, which actually looks a bit promising, though it's a little slow in development:
    https://www.haiku-os.org
    They have builds of Haiku that are somewhat usable though.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Tue Aug 4 02:17:25 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Mon Aug 03 2020 06:49 pm

    developers specifically develop their games for. There's a cost/benefit to using either Windows or Linux. A lot of users here use Linux, but they use their PCs for a lot more than simply gaming.

    You can do a lot more than gaming with Windows too.. Part of it depends on what environment you're comfortable with. Some people just don't really trust Microsoft and want to run something other than Windows.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Underminer on Tue Aug 4 23:53:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 12:55 am

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years and more ago.

    Yeah, but if you have your home directory on a separate disk or
    partition, you're not losing or setting EVERYTHING up with every change
    - another nicety over Windows. I don't distro hop myself, but I can understand the appeal for some. I stick to arch on my main rig, and a
    mix of Debian and Centos elsewhere for the most part. ---
    Underminer

    I keep home on a separate partition, but you still lose other system wide configurations, custom software you've built. I have customisation everywhere, hacks that I've used to get things working.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Gamgee on Tue Aug 4 23:55:00 2020
    Gamgee wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Gamgee <=-

    The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux,
    developers will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all
    the new users. That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of
    choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but
    with a limited audience, there is less impetus for software and
    hardware support. But if it were to get more users, and better
    software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect
    "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS", locked down.

    I have to disagree with some of that. That's the whole point of
    Linux (and open-source software). It's open-source and
    won't/can't be locked down. "Power users" don't really need much "support" from their distro of choice, that's why they're power
    users. Once you've installed and are using your distro of choice,
    what else do you need from "the distro"?

    Just updates. But it can affect the development of subsystems such as pulseaudio, systemd, more intergration between components which should be separate.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Ogg on Tue Aug 4 23:58:00 2020
    Ogg wrote to All <=-

    Hello Dennisk!

    ** On Tuesday 04.08.20 - 01:55, dennisk wrote to Andeddu:

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse.

    Maybe that is their joy or hobby. Maybe they have another pc that they don't change.

    Thats fine for them, I don't care what they do. I'm just saying that one reason I use Linux is NOT to change anything. I have tried other distros, but after a very short period of time, I just realise its still basically Linux and the difference isn't that great.

    In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was
    5 years and more ago.

    I can't imagine changing distros and relearning all the subtleties of
    the new distro. I would get more joy by getting totally familiar with
    one kind of environment so that I can get on with "work".

    Most of the differences are not of great importance, in my opinion. Some differences in software and packaging. I only use Fedora out of habit, because I started with Red Hat. I could switch to another distro no problem, after the initial shock of having to set everything up again, and after a while, it would mean little difference.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Nightfox on Tue Aug 4 04:54:29 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 07:04 pm

    I just don't find a virtual keyboard good enough for how I type. One major thing is that I like tactile feedback (which is essential for touch-typing).

    I second that. I made the jump back to mechanical recently and now even some physical keyboards feel "icky" to my fingers.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Gamgee on Tue Aug 4 05:01:21 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Gamgee to Dennisk on Mon Aug 03 2020 07:44 am

    software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect
    "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS", locked down.
    I have to disagree with some of that. That's the whole point of
    Linux (and open-source software). It's open-source and
    users. Once you've installed and are using your distro of choice,
    what else do you need from "the distro"?

    Second that. There's already some distros geared more to new users, and some more for "power users" Things would just go more down that road; Arch and gentoo wouldn't suddenly get made newbie proof, there'd just be more Ubuntu, PopOS! and Elementary users.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Tue Aug 4 21:27:00 2020
    The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers
    will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users.
    That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there
    is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to
    get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS",
    locked down.

    I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.

    I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.

    The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)

    Cheers,
    Atroxi

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Tue Aug 4 21:50:00 2020
    The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture
    beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.

    This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however, being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.

    The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about
    that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux.

    This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems as well.

    I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installation
    wasn't as
    smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then
    there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a
    printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through
    dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.

    I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using "esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the first place.

    Dealing with it is incredibly frustrating. And don't even get me started with Windows Updates. :'-(

    ... Heisenberg may have slept here.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Arelor on Tue Aug 4 22:00:00 2020
    Yup, Linux is usually easy to install and get running. NOow, installing
    it and getting properly adapted to the hardware... you usually need the GPU kernel modules and to account for things such as Optimus, which are real battery killers if left unchecked. Some networks adapters need specific firmware that is not available from the installer, or you get
    a gelded version. You get the idea.

    Yeah, dealing with dual GPU setups can actually be quite a pain in GNU/Linux. I used to have this laptop that has a Intel Onboard and an nVidia Geforce chip in it. I remember spending days reading stuff up in stackoverflow and the archwiki to understand how to do application specific switching of the graphics chip. I eventually gave up and just disabled the intel onboard one and used the nVidia chip all the way.

    Luckily, I have a thinkpad now so I don't have to deal with that problem anymore. Anything graphics related can stay in my PC.

    Also, I usually throw extra fun in because I try to purchase hardware
    that has good FOSS support so I don't need propietary drivers of
    modules. It sucks when the vendor drops support for your GPU and you
    don't get modules for modern kernels anymore.

    This. It's really nice to have FOSS support in hardware. I've been meaning to test some linux-libre distros in my old laptop recently. But I'm quite afraid that I have to deal with wifi drivers, bluetooth and that nVidia driver.

    ... Error: Windows not found. Use Real Operating System(Y/y)?
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Tue Aug 4 22:20:00 2020
    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
    time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
    and more ago.

    I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years now.

    Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)

    ... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Tue Aug 4 10:51:09 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Mon Aug 03 2020 07:10 pm

    I always used to hear Nvidia had good driver support for Linux, even if it w closed-soruce. I had used Nvidia cards with Linux in the past and had fairl good luck with them. I found ATI cards worked too, with just a couple more steps to install their drivers.

    Nightfox

    Nvidia has good Linux and FreeBSD support for the things they want to support. Which means you depend on them to support your kernel+gpu configuration, for example, or your graphics server stack. I remember when the official position was not to support Wayland. Not to mention the Optimus mess, which had to be completely reverse-engineered by community nerds in order to make Optimus laptops usable.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Gamgee on Tue Aug 4 11:00:03 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Gamgee to Dennisk on Mon Aug 03 2020 07:44 am

    I have to disagree with some of that. That's the whole point of
    Linux (and open-source software). It's open-source and
    won't/can't be locked down. "Power users" don't really need much
    "support" from their distro of choice, that's why they're power
    users. Once you've installed and are using your distro of choice,
    what else do you need from "the distro"?

    "Need" is a strong word, but what users expect from a distribution is usually timely package updates. In the case of enterprise distributions, support and documentation too.

    A Power User can do without distribution support, but it makes your life so much easier. I mean, I can package my own web browser updates if need be, but the main point of a distribution is that a small team of people does that sort of job so the rest of the users don't have to.

    But yes, it is hard to impose a dumbed down experience in the FOSS word. The existence of systemDless distributions proves that Red Hat, with all its might, could not make many users and administrators make the switch to their system daemon, for example. Heck, there are Linux distributions that don't use the standard GNU coreutils or libc's.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Atroxi on Tue Aug 4 12:19:23 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Arelor on Tue Aug 04 2020 06:00 pm

    Yeah, dealing with dual GPU setups can actually be quite a pain in GNU/Linux used to have this laptop that has a Intel Onboard and an nVidia Geforce chip it. I remember spending days reading stuff up in stackoverflow and the archw to understand how to do application specific switching of the graphics chip. eventually gave up and just disabled the intel onboard one and used the nVid

    Actually I persisted until I got the per-application switch functioning, because I wanted to demonstrate I could get it working on my Slackware.

    Then I disabled the thing and switched the whole computer to the Intel chip since I had no use for nVidia computing :-)


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Tue Aug 4 15:15:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:13 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sun Aug 02 2020 01:15 pm

    If you're not into hardware intensive gaming, a linux box serves the same purpose a Windows or Mac box does. If you already use Firefox, Chrome, o Libre Office, the learning curve is slight for small changes in function appearance. Several open source programs are ported to linux, windows an mac, so the platform they rin on means less.

    I am ONLY into hardware intensive gaming.

    I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Microsoft h the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to ever change but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use should Windows e become too oppressive.


    Look for Youtube videos on how to install Windows subsytem for Linux (WSL2), then install a linux distro such as Ubuntu or Kali from the Windows app
    store. Follow the instructions in the video on how to access a linux desktop running on Windows without a VM. You would access it like you were
    performing a remote desktop session.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Tue Aug 4 15:50:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:18 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:13 pm

    I am ONLY into hardware intensive gaming.

    I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Microsof the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to ever cha but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use should Window become too oppressive.

    You maintain that mobile devices are eating the PC market alive. That'd be i and Android eating Windows alive if true.

    On the other hand, Microsoft has basically thrown the towel and is actually selling Linux industrial solutions, because Unix-like stuff has basically "w for datacenters and containers.

    Windows will be around for long, but it is no longer the unbeatable giant it used to be. No wonder Microsoft is investing heavily in other fields nowaday Such as railway companies :-P


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es


    Just like IBM learned years ago linux is not competetition. It's another platform for MS to make money off of selling development services. No need
    to make enemies when you can make them customers.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Tue Aug 4 16:06:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:13 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:13 pm

    I like that Linux is around as an alternative to Windows. I know Micros hold the largest marketshare in the OS business, which is unlikely to e change, but it's nice to know that there's something else I can use sho Windows ever become too oppressive.

    There are other lesser-known alternatives too, and there have been in the pa s and environments such as OS/2 (from IBM), GeoWorks, and I think some other led Be, Inc. that made an operating system called BeOS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS
    BeOS was originally developed for Be, Inc.'s own computer, the BeBox, which buying NeXT and using NeXT as the basis for OS X.

    BeOS was later ported to Intel PCs, and they sold a version for PC compatibl
    compete with Windows.

    Now, there is an open-source re-creation of BeOS called Haiku, which actuall https://www.haiku-os.org
    They have builds of Haiku that are somewhat usable though.

    Nightfox


    Don't forget NetBSD, and it's derivative, NextOS. NextOS was the precursor
    to OSX


    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Tue Aug 4 22:14:15 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:12 am

    A great way to learn linux without disturbing your main computing rig is to buy a single board computer such as a Raspberry Pi and install the Raspberry Pi OS (formerly Raspbian) or another ARM-based linux distribution, preferrably Debian-based. Manjaro is a bit more complex under the hood (Arch).

    A Pi4 can be had for about $50 for the 4gb model. Be sure to add the heatsink kit and a fan, though. Set it up to connect through VNC and access it through VNC viewer installed on your Windows box. There are times when I doing research or looking for data on older DOS programs, and some o fthe abandonware sites looks sketchy. I'd rather browse those sites with Firefox or Chromium on the Pi4 rather than risk my Windows box.

    That's what I'd likely do if I were so inclined to venture outwidth the Windows ecosystem. I've heard a lot about Raspberry Pi in the vintage computer world but wasn't really aware of what it actually did until recently. They seem like versitile little machines! I'd rather mess about with one of those and get used to Linux than risk messing up and corrupting my expensive Windows machine.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Tue Aug 4 23:15:08 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:18 pm

    You maintain that mobile devices are eating the PC market alive. That'd be iOS and Android eating Windows alive if true.

    On the other hand, Microsoft has basically thrown the towel and is actually selling Linux industrial solutions, because Unix-like stuff has basically "won" for datacenters and containers.

    Windows will be around for long, but it is no longer the unbeatable giant it used to be. No wonder Microsoft is investing heavily in other fields nowadays. Such as railway companies :-P

    I absolutely maintain that iOS and Android are killing Windows. I am not sure if Windows are as dominant as they used to be in the corporate world, but they're taking losses everywhere else. Their Windows Phone OS bombed hard, and I am glad of it.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Tue Aug 4 23:39:41 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 12:55 am

    What is odd is that I use Linux for the same reason! I want an easier life, not to be bothered, and most of all, not have to change the way I do things or interact or be imposed upon. I liked the fact I could install Linux once, and it would run, and I wouldn't have to go through the format/reinstall cycle that Windows (at least back then) needed you to do.
    I can't be bothered setting up a fresh system, nor do I want my customisations to disappear or learn a new UI I didn't choose. So with Linux, I can install once, and by my selection of GUI and software, I can stick to my tried and true habits.

    Windows is quite decent now. It's stable, I reinstalled Windows once on my last gaming laptop but that was due to a debilitating graphics driver issue back in 2016. I have since purchased another gaming laptop which I have been using since mid-2019 which I have no intention of ever reformatting. My desktop is clean, the GUI is nice... though not as nice as Windows 7! There is a little bit of unecessary clutter if you click on the start button which casuses minor annoyance. On the whole, it's fine for what I use it for... I have my gaming clients, games and other utilities which are built into Windows which I use on a regualar basis. I have nothing else installed, the system is as clean as a whistle, and the desktop is clutter free with only 3 icons displayed.

    I don't have any use case to move, but if Windows did one day become a pain in the ass, I wouldn't hesitate to jump ship!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Andeddu on Tue Aug 4 20:02:14 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Tue Aug 04 2020 07:39 pm

    Windows is quite decent now. It's stable, I reinstalled Windows once on my

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... *breathes in* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Windows is stable. That's a good one. It's better than previous offerings in some cases, but much much worse in others, for one You still measure stable uptime on most Windows systems in hours, sometimes days, past that you still start to get increasingly weird problems. That's fine for playing games, which I understand is your priority, but when you start dealing with production or productivity environments it's laughably horrible. Then there's the frequency with which auto updates, which you have very very little control over, have a bad tendency to either require and auto reboot systems, or break critical functionality until a reboot - and they can't even manage to leave user settings alone without wiping them out half the time. Once again, fine for gaming, but the frequency with which I get frantic calls from clients who have had a mission critical system or functionality break during work hours because of an unavoidable update or other random event is higher than it has been since Vista.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Tue Aug 4 20:57:37 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Tue Aug 04 2020 12:06 pm

    Don't forget NetBSD, and it's derivative, NextOS. NextOS was the precursor to OSX

    Wasn't it NextStep?

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Atroxi on Wed Aug 5 19:59:00 2020
    On 08-04-20 17:50, Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
    the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
    is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
    being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.

    Yeah, people bang on about this interface or that, but my primary interface is Bash, usually over SSH, because most of my Linux systems are running as servers. I do have one desktop, which is running Cinnamon on Mint, which I like as an interface. And I have a netbook running Lubuntu

    The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about
    that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux.

    If not harder. Linux at least is honest about its complexity. Windows tries to hide the complexity, and that makes diving under the hoof harder at times.

    This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
    unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
    running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
    depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
    as well.

    Biggest challenge I've had is installing newer software on an older distro, but I solve that one, by installing the dependency that was too old from source by hand, using a newer version. Then the software I waas installing compiled properly. :)

    But that's no different in the Windows world, where newer software won't install on older versions of Windows - these days, usually Windows 7 is the cut off, but there is software that will only install on Windows 10. Difference is, that unlike my old Linux system, you can't upgrade the parts that are "too old" individually under Windows as easily, and generally compiling from source isn't an option.

    I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
    well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
    grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
    "esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
    that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
    first place.

    One thing I do notice with Windows is other than the Microsoft components, upgrades are driven by individual vendors, while on Linux, updates are generally managed by the distribution maintainers. While the Linux way is great in that it's generally painless, and reboots are rarely needed (only when upgrading the kernel and possibly glibc), some apps, like Firefox aren't updated as promptly or automatically as they are on Windows.

    Just different ways of doing things.


    ... On a clear disk you can seek forever.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Atroxi on Wed Aug 5 20:06:00 2020
    On 08-04-20 18:20, Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
    the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
    you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
    place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
    now.

    For me, it depends on the application. A lot of ham radio applications these days are built for either Debian or Ubuntu, and there's often packages for only those distros (e.g. AllStar, DVSwitch) are easiest installed on Debian Stretch, where they can be installed from apt repositories.

    Some business oriented applications are built for a Red Hat style distro, and will run on RHEL or CentOS without any dramas, possibly Fedora with some massaging.

    I use mostly Debian nowadays, with some CentOS, Lubuntu and Mint.

    Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)

    Unless I have a compelling reason to try a particular distro, I'll use what best fit my operational needs.


    ... The exception also declares the rule
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Wed Aug 5 02:55:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Tue Aug 04 2020 06:14 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:12 am

    A great way to learn linux without disturbing your main computing rig is buy a single board computer such as a Raspberry Pi and install the Raspbe Pi OS (formerly Raspbian) or another ARM-based linux distribution, preferrably Debian-based. Manjaro is a bit more complex under the hood (Arch).

    A Pi4 can be had for about $50 for the 4gb model. Be sure to add the heatsink kit and a fan, though. Set it up to connect through VNC and acc it through VNC viewer installed on your Windows box. There are times whe doing research or looking for data on older DOS programs, and some o fth abandonware sites looks sketchy. I'd rather browse those sites with Fire or Chromium on the Pi4 rather than risk my Windows box.

    That's what I'd likely do if I were so inclined to venture outwidth the Wind ecosystem. I've heard a lot about Raspberry Pi in the vintage computer world but wasn't really aware of what it actually did until recently. They seem li versitile little machines! I'd rather mess about with one of those and get u to Linux than risk messing up and corrupting my expensive Windows machine.


    Another good reason to buy a Pi is they're great tools for learning Python
    on. There are several programmable IO pins that can be accessed through
    Python scripts, so you can write programs ranging from detecting if switches
    are flipped, or light up LED's to making drones or home automation. Sites such as Adafruits provide training as wells as parts to go along with vivid imaginations.

    Setting up a Pi is easy. Download an OS image, copy it to a micro SD card
    with Etcher or a similar application, pop it in the Pi then add power. The
    OS image will configure itself to the hardware it detects. Raspbian comes
    with good configuration utilities to allow remote acces through VNC or ssh. The first time you set it up you may require a monitor and keyboard and
    mouse, but after that you can leave it headless and access it through VNC. Recently I moved a USB hard drive off my Windows 10 device because I noticed
    it woul spin it up on occasions when I wasn't using it, so I installed samba on my Pi and made it into network attached storage by movin the USB drive to t he Pi.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Wed Aug 5 03:25:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Arelor on Tue Aug 04 2020 07:15 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 04:18 pm

    You maintain that mobile devices are eating the PC market alive. That'd b iOS and Android eating Windows alive if true.

    On the other hand, Microsoft has basically thrown the towel and is actual selling Linux industrial solutions, because Unix-like stuff has basically "won" for datacenters and containers.

    Windows will be around for long, but it is no longer the unbeatable giant used to be. No wonder Microsoft is investing heavily in other fields nowadays. Such as railway companies :-P

    I absolutely maintain that iOS and Android are killing Windows. I am not sur if Windows are as dominant as they used to be in the corporate world, but they're taking losses everywhere else. Their Windows Phone OS bombed hard, a I am glad of it.


    As applications moved to the cloud and become friendly to multiple platforms, the OS may begin to mean less and less. A friend worked at a large
    corporation that ditched MS Office and switched to Google's office apps. A
    lady I knew was working at a school that was rolling out Chromebooks to their staff. Legacy apps that require a specific OS may turn to virtual desktop environments such as Citrix or even run in something such as Docker.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Wed Aug 5 13:45:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers
    will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users.
    That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there
    is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to
    get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS",
    locked down.

    I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether
    the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the
    operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.

    I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net
    positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus
    for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus
    to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software
    support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.

    The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into
    GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I
    think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)

    I started using Linux in 2000, and back then the focus was on getting "mom" to use it. Linux users seemed to believe that "mom" had to use it, and this market was important to unseat Microsoft. I don't believe that anymore, and I think Linux will always be, and should be, niche. Also, I think the attempts are misguided, as the barrier is more to do with inertia, documentation, not the fact that Gnome wasn't controlled by systemd, or that we don't have apps which override window decorations, etc, or a containerised software installation system. My wife who is not computer literate navigates KDE Plasma just fine, as does my 8 year old daughter, who has been able to work the GUI for some time now. Linux is and has been usable for some time now.

    In part, the problem is that because Linux is a developers OS, developers approach the problem in terms of what new code can be written. So the "solution" always tend to be, more code, another standard, another frameworks, which is NOT what Linux needs. And these solutions are always promoted from the developers POV. The simplification Linux needs is not new software or a new GUI, but rather simplification of choice and method. There are too many distros, and different distros have different 'spins', even more confusing! Sadly, even Puppy Linux is like that know, with multiple Puppies. Even *I* get confused! There is Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, this spin, that spin. There are multiple ways to do things, and which ones work depends on your distro. Developers believe that there should be a uniform look, but then they change their GUI, its a bit braindead to be honest. No one is in charge.

    In the ideal world, there would only be a small number of distros, you could count them on one hand, each one designed for a different use case (full PC, portable, single board PC), one package mangement system (RPM or DEB, I'm not fussed, but I prefer RPM) and sub-systems which can actually be understood, are well documented and don't constantly break. Pulseaudio would not exist and there would be no braindead ideas where the software tries to be too "clever", (pulse audio), and things would not break on updates. There would be agreement on standards. Software and hardware vendors would actually be able to release a package that will work for all Linux users.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Wed Aug 5 14:51:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture
    beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.

    This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
    the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
    is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
    being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.

    I agree that is not for everyone, but I'm always surprised when people who make a living writing software and install complex frameworks don't take advantage of it.

    The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about
    that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux.

    This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
    unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
    running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
    depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
    as well.

    I did break my system once when I started using it, back before journaling filesystems existed, and a hard shutdown caused files to be lost that I didn't know how to replace. But that was aaaggges ago. I haven't had since then any wierd problems that I couldnt' resolve, and the few times I did, it was something not unexpected (ie, I made a system change that didn't quite work), or some niggly problem with specific software during an update that I could resolve.

    The other thing I liked, compared to Windows, is no performance degradation. None. I don't know about now, but Windows would age, get slower, more buggy. I NEVER had Linux do that, no matter what software I installed.

    I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installation
    wasn't as
    smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then
    there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a
    printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through
    dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.

    I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
    well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
    grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
    "esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
    that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
    first place.

    Dealing with it is incredibly frustrating. And don't even get me
    started with Windows Updates. :'-(

    Usability comes from familiarity, I completely agree and devs need to learn this so they don't constantly break what people have learned with their experiments. My daughter is familiar with KDE Plasma, so to her, that is easy.
    Should would be JUST as comfortable with KDE 3, I'm sure, if that was still current. If they were to change it, because of some new fad or idea, she would get frustrated. There is no problem with it now. I think his focus on mechanics and UI design, and redesigining things all the time is largely pointless, and mostly a self-indulgent wank. Most UI redesigns turn out to just be a PITA.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Wed Aug 5 14:57:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
    time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
    and more ago.

    I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
    the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
    you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
    place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
    now.

    Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)

    Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents of the repository.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Wed Aug 5 18:54:03 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 07:04 pm

    I just don't find a virtual keyboard good enough for how I type. One major thing is that I like tactile feedback (which is essential for touch-typing).

    I think it's hit or miss for our generation. Seeing the younger generation using virtual keyboards, you'd think they were on physical keyboard such is the speed they're able to type.

    I am in love with this 1984 Apple keyboard I am using right now, it's feels even more tacticle than my Cherry MX mechanical keyboard.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Wed Aug 5 19:12:22 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:09 pm

    Heh. It became too oppressive a couple of decades ago, IMHO.

    It's oppressive in a benevolant dictitorial sense. I don't ask for much and it provides me with what I need. I have zero network knowledge, don't run servers, don't produce anything... therefore I am unlikely to stray outside of the garden.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Wed Aug 5 19:23:33 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:13 pm

    There are other lesser-known alternatives too, and there have been in the past too. In the mid-late 80s, there were also other computer systems on the market competing with PCs & Windows, such as the Amiga, Mac (of course), and other PC operating systems and environments such as OS/2 (from IBM), GeoWorks, and I think some others too. Many of those went away in the 90s due to Microsoft's dominance with Windows. But also, the 90s is when Linux started up. In the 90s, there was also another company called Be, Inc. that made an operating system called BeOS:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS
    BeOS was originally developed for Be, Inc.'s own computer, the BeBox, which used a PowerPC processor. Be, Inc. was started by Jean-Louis Gasse, who used to work at Apple. I heard BeOS was a contender to replace the classic MacOS, before Apple ended up buying NeXT and using NeXT as the basis for OS X.

    BeOS was later ported to Intel PCs, and they sold a version for PC compatibles using Intel and AMD processors. I bought a copy of BeOS 4.5 around 1998 or 1999; I actually thought it looked promising, and it had great multi-tasking. But it still couldn't compete with Windows.

    Fantastic post! Thanks for the history lesson. I knew a little about NeXT but had not heard about BeOS... looked like quite a promising and fairly feature packed, shame it failed to compete.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Wed Aug 5 12:42:14 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Wed Aug 05 2020 02:54 pm

    I just don't find a virtual keyboard good enough for how I type. One
    major thing is that I like tactile feedback (which is essential for
    touch-typing).

    I think it's hit or miss for our generation. Seeing the younger generation using virtual keyboards, you'd think they were on physical keyboard such is the speed they're able to type.

    I am in love with this 1984 Apple keyboard I am using right now, it's feels even more tacticle than my Cherry MX mechanical keyboard.

    It seems weird that when I was growing up, a lot of people said computers were appearing everywhere and it would be good to learn about computers, etc.; I had a touch typing class in 8th grade, and now a lot of people are using tablets & smartphones with virtual keyboards, etc.. It's still the same basic computing concepts, but in a somwaht different form.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Dennisk on Wed Aug 5 19:23:00 2020
    On 05 Aug 2020, Dennisk said the following...

    Usability comes from familiarity, I completely agree and devs need to lear this so they don't constantly break what people have learned with their experiments.

    Someone needs to send this statement to the Microsoft Office team. I get
    that some things change between versions, which used to be every couple of years: Office 2007, Office 2013, Office 2016 & now Office 2019.

    As/if you upgrade you have to find where they moved certain items on the
    ribbon and then you eventually get used to it.

    We use Office 365 at work and they constantly changing things. Most
    recently in Outlook they moved the search bar from where it always was up
    into the title bar of the window. So now if I want to grab the window to
    drag it to my other monitor I have to make sure to not click in the search
    bar. Also now when searching it'll expand to cover everything under it, so
    you know, if you want to read something you're searching for, sorry, that doesn't work anymore.

    Another small annoyance is they've "streamlined" the look. Current day's
    email only show the time and anything before that only shows the date. Want
    to know the time an email was sent yesterday? Can't just get that at a
    glance anymore, you have double click the message to open it in a new window for that information.

    The problem is, I've just gotten used to how this is now (there's no way to roll back or stop updates) - Next month they may move the search bar again or being the time back. Who knows?

    Jay

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/06/11 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Wed Aug 5 19:32:39 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Mon Aug 03 2020 10:17 pm

    You can do a lot more than gaming with Windows too.. Part of it depends on what environment you're comfortable with. Some people just don't really trust Microsoft and want to run something other than Windows.

    I suppose you could do pretty much anything with Windows... which is why it's so popular in the business/corporate world. As a gamer I have no issues with Windows, all my nVidia drivers are fully compatible and everything just works. I am not an advanced user of computers, I know more than probably 90% of the population, but that's not hard. I rely on Windows for a hassle free experience... everything is made to work on this platform so I can't see myself going anywhere else in the immediate future.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Wed Aug 5 20:09:48 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 11:15 am

    Look for Youtube videos on how to install Windows subsytem for Linux (WSL2), then install a linux distro such as Ubuntu or Kali from the Windows app store. Follow the instructions in the video on how to access a linux desktop running on Windows without a VM. You would access it like you were performing a remote desktop session.

    Interesting stuff... I'll check out a video on YouTube and see what it's all about.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Underminer on Wed Aug 5 20:34:17 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to Andeddu on Tue Aug 04 2020 04:02 pm

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... *breathes in* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Windows is stable. That's a good one. It's better than previous offerings in some cases, but much much worse in others, for one You still measure stable uptime on most Windows systems in hours, sometimes days, past that you still start to get increasingly weird problems. That's fine for playing games, which I understand is your priority, but when you start dealing with production or productivity environments it's laughably horrible. Then there's the frequency with which auto updates, which you have very very little control over, have a bad tendency to either require and auto reboot systems, or break critical functionality until a reboot - and they can't even manage to leave user settings alone without wiping them out half the time. Once again, fine for gaming, but the frequency with which I get frantic calls from clients who have had a mission critical system or functionality break during work hours because of an unavoidable update or other random event is higher than it has been since Vista.

    Those auto-updates are horrendous. I have had reboots occurr without my consent in the middle of a match while on Skype with a group of friends. I've also previously had Windows auto-update my graphics drivers too with no warning. That's the kind of shit that could potentially drive people like me away from the platform. There should be an overlap period of a week or so allowing the user to update in their own time... which, in the example you've provided, is particularly important for businesses.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Wed Aug 5 18:11:44 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Wed Aug 05 2020 03:32 pm

    I suppose you could do pretty much anything with Windows... which is why it's so popular in the business/corporate world. As a gamer I have no issues with Windows, all my nVidia drivers are fully compatible and everything just works. I am not an advanced user of computers, I know more than probably 90% of the population, but that's not hard. I rely on Windows for a hassle free experience... everything is made to work on this platform so I can't see myself going anywhere else in the immediate future.

    Yep. Although I've thought about switching to Linux, I'm still using Windows as my main OS right now because I have things set up that way now and things are working okay for me.
    The main reason Linux is tempting for me is because Linux distros can be downloaded and used freely (you don't have to buy a license), and there's significant support for Linux now, with good driver support and a good selection of software. The software selection still isn't quite like Windows for some things though (gaming in particular).
    Many Linux distros can be installed and set up fairly easily too. I did a fresh install of Linux Mint 19.3 on my home 'server' PC in December and it went smoothly, with all the hardware devices working out of the box (including things like the wifi card). One thing I'm running on it is Plex, a media server software. I'm still a bit amazed that there are things like Linux and Plex that you can download and use freely without having to buy. Plexe does have premium features you can pay for, but you don't have to. You can still use Plex freely and put a bunch of movies, TV shows, and music on it to stream on your devices.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Andeddu on Wed Aug 5 20:57:40 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to Underminer on Wed Aug 05 2020 04:34 pm

    I've also previously had Windows auto-update my graphics drivers too with no warning. That's the kind of shit that could potentially drive people like me away from the platform. There should be an overlap period of a week or so allowing the user to update in their own time... which, in the example you've provided, is particularly important for businesses.

    Not just for convenience of update times either, but previous to W10's crap update system I used to test updates on one system in an office or establishment to make sure nothing important was going to break before pushing it out to all the other workstations. Ask any reputable dev or IT pro what they think about pushing updates into a live production environment without validating them... Especially given that MS laid off most of it's QA testing dept for said updates. Good grief.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Underminer on Wed Aug 5 21:43:47 2020
    On 8/5/2020 3:57 PM, Underminer wrote:

    Not just for convenience of update times either, but previous to W10's crap update system I used to test updates on one system in an office or establishment to make sure nothing important was going to break before pushing it out to all the other workstations. Ask any reputable dev or IT pro what they think about pushing updates into a live production environment without validating them... Especially given that MS laid off most of it's QA testing dept for said updates. Good grief.

    You can use enterprise licensing and domains to control updates, which
    does very little for SOHO... I don't like how forceful updates are in a
    lot of ways. Though I do feel it's probably better for most home users
    the way it is now.

    I also don't like how far they've gone with malware detection (like if
    you hostfile block some of their analytics servers). It's gotten me far
    more eager to get a pihole setup sooner than later.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Warpslide on Thu Aug 6 14:27:00 2020
    Warpslide wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 05 Aug 2020, Dennisk said the following...

    Usability comes from familiarity, I completely agree and devs need to lear this so they don't constantly break what people have learned with their experiments.

    Someone needs to send this statement to the Microsoft Office team. I
    get that some things change between versions, which used to be every couple of years: Office 2007, Office 2013, Office 2016 & now Office
    2019.

    As/if you upgrade you have to find where they moved certain items on
    the ribbon and then you eventually get used to it.

    We use Office 365 at work and they constantly changing things. Most recently in Outlook they moved the search bar from where it always was
    up into the title bar of the window. So now if I want to grab the
    window to drag it to my other monitor I have to make sure to not click
    in the search bar. Also now when searching it'll expand to cover everything under it, so you know, if you want to read something you're searching for, sorry, that doesn't work anymore.

    Another small annoyance is they've "streamlined" the look. Current
    day's email only show the time and anything before that only shows the date. Want to know the time an email was sent yesterday? Can't just
    get that at a glance anymore, you have double click the message to open
    it in a new window for that information.

    The problem is, I've just gotten used to how this is now (there's no
    way to roll back or stop updates) - Next month they may move the search bar again or being the time back. Who knows?

    Jay

    You can change the way outlook displays e-mails so its more like how it was before. Agree on the office changes, the ribbon was a slight improvement, but it took getting used to. I do find that things tend to change between releases. More annoyingly, is that updates happen in the background on the windows system I use, so all of a sudden, things are different! No warning, nothing.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 6 13:14:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-

    On 08-04-20 17:50, Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
    the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
    is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
    being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.

    Yeah, people bang on about this interface or that, but my primary interface is Bash, usually over SSH, because most of my Linux systems
    are running as servers. I do have one desktop, which is running
    Cinnamon on Mint, which I like as an interface. And I have a netbook running Lubuntu

    The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about
    that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux.

    If not harder. Linux at least is honest about its complexity. Windows tries to hide the complexity, and that makes diving under the hoof
    harder at times.

    Exactly, I think it really helps that GNU/Linux is transparent with how it works and there's a plethora of documentation that can be read within the manpages. I'd say, I learned much more about how my computer works while using GNU/Linux as compared to when I was using Windows, where most of my knowledge are either from brief mentions in support forums either that or just blind faith and superstition. :-P

    This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
    unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
    running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
    depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
    as well.

    Biggest challenge I've had is installing newer software on an older distro, but I solve that one, by installing the dependency that was too old from source by hand, using a newer version. Then the software I
    waas installing compiled properly. :)

    On the other hand, mine's the exact reverse, haha! There are instances that I'm using older or more esoteric software and as such are often not provided in the package repositories, I usually end up compiling those ones from source if I can't find an .appimage or similar for it.

    But that's no different in the Windows world, where newer software
    won't install on older versions of Windows - these days, usually
    Windows 7 is the cut off, but there is software that will only install
    on Windows 10. Difference is, that unlike my old Linux system, you
    can't upgrade the parts that are "too old" individually under Windows
    as easily, and generally compiling from source isn't an option.

    I agree.

    I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
    well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
    grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
    "esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
    that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
    first place.

    One thing I do notice with Windows is other than the Microsoft
    components, upgrades are driven by individual vendors, while on Linux, updates are generally managed by the distribution maintainers. While
    the Linux way is great in that it's generally painless, and reboots are rarely needed (only when upgrading the kernel and possibly glibc), some apps, like Firefox aren't updated as promptly or automatically as they
    are on Windows.

    Just different ways of doing things.

    Yeah, I agree. It's basically just picking your own poison, haha! :-)

    ... On a clear disk you can seek forever.

    ... What do you mean off topic??!!! There's a topic?
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 6 13:19:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-

    On 08-04-20 18:20, Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
    the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
    you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
    place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
    now.

    For me, it depends on the application. A lot of ham radio applications these days are built for either Debian or Ubuntu, and there's often packages for only those distros (e.g. AllStar, DVSwitch) are easiest installed on Debian Stretch, where they can be installed from apt repositories.

    Oh wow. I've been thinking of getting into ham radio recently, just because of this whole pandemic thing is making me a bit looney at times. It's great that there's good support for those in GNU/Linux.

    Some business oriented applications are built for a Red Hat style
    distro, and will run on RHEL or CentOS without any dramas, possibly
    Fedora with some massaging.

    I use mostly Debian nowadays, with some CentOS, Lubuntu and Mint.

    Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)

    Unless I have a compelling reason to try a particular distro, I'll use what best fit my operational needs.

    It's exactly this, isn't it? We use what fits the best for our needs. Though I do think there's also pleasure in just figuring how stuff works in different systems, if you have nothing better to do that is. :-P

    ... The exception also declares the rule

    ... Not enough mail? Here, let me help...
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  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Thu Aug 6 13:46:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers
    will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users.
    That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there
    is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to
    get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS",
    locked down.

    I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether
    the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the
    operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.

    I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net
    positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus
    for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus
    to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software
    support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.

    The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into
    GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I
    think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)

    I started using Linux in 2000, and back then the focus was on getting "mom" to use it. Linux users seemed to believe that "mom" had to use
    it, and this market was important to unseat Microsoft. I don't believe that anymore, and I think Linux will always be, and should be, niche. Also, I think the attempts are misguided, as the barrier is more to do with inertia, documentation, not the fact that Gnome wasn't controlled
    by systemd, or that we don't have apps which override window
    decorations, etc, or a containerised software installation system. My wife who is not computer literate navigates KDE Plasma just fine, as
    does my 8 year old daughter, who has been able to work the GUI for some time now. Linux is and has been usable for some time now.

    In part, the problem is that because Linux is a developers OS,
    developers approach the problem in terms of what new code can be
    written. So the "solution" always tend to be, more code, another standard, another frameworks, which is NOT what Linux needs. And these solutions are always promoted from the developers POV. The
    simplification Linux needs is not new software or a new GUI, but rather simplification of choice and method. There are too many distros, and different distros have different 'spins', even more confusing! Sadly,
    even Puppy Linux is like that know, with multiple Puppies. Even *I*
    get confused! There is Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, this spin, that spin.
    There are multiple ways to do things, and which ones work depends on
    your distro. Developers believe that there should be a uniform look,
    but then they change their GUI, its a bit braindead to be honest. No
    one is in charge.

    In the ideal world, there would only be a small number of distros, you could count them on one hand, each one designed for a different use
    case (full PC, portable, single board PC), one package mangement system (RPM or DEB, I'm not fussed, but I prefer RPM) and sub-systems which
    can actually be understood, are well documented and don't constantly break. Pulseaudio would not exist and there would be no braindead
    ideas where the software tries to be too "clever", (pulse audio), and things would not break on updates. There would be agreement on
    standards. Software and hardware vendors would actually be able to release a package that will work for all Linux users.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...? I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche. Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.

    Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly, for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.

    I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how active things are in the development side of things and gives any coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally, I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro" rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)


    ... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
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  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Thu Aug 6 14:03:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture
    beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.

    This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
    the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
    is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
    being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.

    I agree that is not for everyone, but I'm always surprised when people
    who make a living writing software and install complex frameworks don't take advantage of it.

    Are they? Well, I don't write software for a living but if that's the case then they're definitely using a boat to travel the road.

    The argument that less goes wrong with Windows, I don't know about
    that. I hear the argument that Windows is easier to use, but when something does go wrong, its just as hard to fix as Linux.

    This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
    unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
    running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
    depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
    as well.

    I did break my system once when I started using it, back before
    journaling filesystems existed, and a hard shutdown caused files to be lost that I didn't know how to replace. But that was aaaggges ago. I haven't had since then any wierd problems that I couldnt' resolve, and
    the few times I did, it was something not unexpected (ie, I made a
    system change that didn't quite work), or some niggly problem with specific software during an update that I could resolve.

    The other thing I liked, compared to Windows, is no performance degradation. None. I don't know about now, but Windows would age, get slower, more buggy. I NEVER had Linux do that, no matter what software
    I installed.

    This is true. A friend of mine always had problems with Windows over time, he would install Windows 10 and after two years it would slow down to a crawl and would randomly throw errors at him which would then prompt him to reset his system. Rinse and repeat.

    I set up a Windows machine some time ago (Windows 10), and installation
    wasn't as
    smooth as I thought it would be. The machine would present almost no information and seem to be busy for ages doing who-knows-what. Then
    there is drivers. If you bought your hardware new, or bought it all installed, its OK, but if you were to try and find drivers for a
    printer you bought second hand, then it can be awful going through
    dodgy sites. Not Microsoft's fault, but still part of the Windows experience. Occasionally when I need to do something more complex in Windows, I find it quite frustrating.

    I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
    well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
    grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
    "esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
    that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
    first place.

    Dealing with it is incredibly frustrating. And don't even get me
    started with Windows Updates. :'-(

    Usability comes from familiarity, I completely agree and devs need to learn this so they don't constantly break what people have learned with their experiments. My daughter is familiar with KDE Plasma, so to her, that is easy.
    Should would be JUST as comfortable with KDE 3, I'm sure, if that was still current. If they were to change it, because of some new fad or idea, she would get frustrated. There is no problem with it now. I
    think his focus on mechanics and UI design, and redesigining things all the time is largely pointless, and mostly a self-indulgent wank. Most
    UI redesigns turn out to just be a PITA.

    Yeah, UI redesigns are a massive PITA from a user's standpoint. Suddenly things that you're used to aren't what they are. I really liked the old GNOME but then they completely went 180 with GNOME 3. Though it's great that MATE exists, users can't just rely to some concerned developer to fork the older, more desirable, version and maintain it. The lead developers themselves shouldn't just suddenly depart to their previous design language and expect everyone to use their system. To be honest, that's part of the reason why I just used CLI applications and stuck with a simple window manager, things are more consistent and are much more customizable; though of course window managers are not for everyone.

    I think part of what I said earlier has to do with inertia that you've talked about in the other thread. Windows just has this decades long inertia to back it up and people who grew up using it wouldn't just give it up easily for something else. So yeah, I agree, usability comes with familiarity but Windows has so much familiarity that even if it is technically subpar compared to the other operating systems that people still find it usable.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    ... Don't use a boat to travel the road.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Thu Aug 6 14:14:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
    time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
    and more ago.

    I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
    the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
    you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
    place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
    now.

    Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)

    Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not
    sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents
    of the repository.

    In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works. Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which some might care about.

    Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.

    I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple and fast.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    ... If it feels like a sales pitch, then it is a sales pitch.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Tracker1 on Thu Aug 6 00:34:15 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Tracker1 to Underminer on Wed Aug 05 2020 05:43 pm

    You can use enterprise licensing and domains to control updates, which does very little for SOHO... I don't like how forceful updates are in a

    Not really. I heavily utilize the available GPO options to limit things where possible, but they are extremely neutered compared to W7 options.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Atroxi on Thu Aug 6 23:48:00 2020
    On 08-06-20 09:14, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    On the other hand, mine's the exact reverse, haha! There are instances that I'm using older or more esoteric software and as such are often
    not provided in the package repositories, I usually end up compiling
    those ones from source if I can't find an .appimage or similar for it.

    Sometimes compiling older software on a modern distro can be a challenge too! :) I have struck that one myself.

    I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
    well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
    grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
    "esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
    that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
    first place.

    Yes, a lot of Windows is familiarity. I'm equally well versed in both Windows and Linux - both are equally familiar, as I have been running Linux since 1995, Windows only a few years earlier.

    One thing I do notice with Windows is other than the Microsoft
    components, upgrades are driven by individual vendors, while on Linux, updates are generally managed by the distribution maintainers. While
    the Linux way is great in that it's generally painless, and reboots are rarely needed (only when upgrading the kernel and possibly glibc), some apps, like Firefox aren't updated as promptly or automatically as they
    are on Windows.

    Just different ways of doing things.

    Yeah, I agree. It's basically just picking your own poison, haha! :-)

    True, though I do find it annoying when key desktop apps don't update on Linux like they do on Windows, even after using the distro's package management.


    ... Discard an axiom
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Atroxi on Thu Aug 6 23:53:00 2020
    On 08-06-20 09:19, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    For me, it depends on the application. A lot of ham radio applications these days are built for either Debian or Ubuntu, and there's often packages for only those distros (e.g. AllStar, DVSwitch) are easiest installed on Debian Stretch, where they can be installed from apt repositories.

    Oh wow. I've been thinking of getting into ham radio recently, just because of this whole pandemic thing is making me a bit looney at
    times. It's great that there's good support for those in GNU/Linux.

    It's good for these crazy times. I get on a "welfare net" most mornings, where hams around this end of the country get on and let each other know how things are going, and compare notes on lockdown survival. :)

    It's exactly this, isn't it? We use what fits the best for our needs. Though I do think there's also pleasure in just figuring how stuff
    works in different systems, if you have nothing better to do that is.
    :-P

    Haha I certainly don't have time, plenty of things on the go here. While I find the concept of Gentoo interesting, I can't see it working for me. :)

    ... The exception also declares the rule

    ... Not enough mail? Here, let me help...

    Haha I bet! :D


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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 01:18:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers
    will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users.
    That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there
    is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to
    get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS",
    locked down.

    I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether
    the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the
    operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.

    I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net
    positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus
    for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus
    to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software
    support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.

    The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into
    GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I
    think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)

    I started using Linux in 2000, and back then the focus was on getting "mom" to use it. Linux users seemed to believe that "mom" had to use
    it, and this market was important to unseat Microsoft. I don't believe that anymore, and I think Linux will always be, and should be, niche. Also, I think the attempts are misguided, as the barrier is more to do with inertia, documentation, not the fact that Gnome wasn't controlled
    by systemd, or that we don't have apps which override window
    decorations, etc, or a containerised software installation system. My wife who is not computer literate navigates KDE Plasma just fine, as
    does my 8 year old daughter, who has been able to work the GUI for some time now. Linux is and has been usable for some time now.

    In part, the problem is that because Linux is a developers OS,
    developers approach the problem in terms of what new code can be
    written. So the "solution" always tend to be, more code, another standard, another frameworks, which is NOT what Linux needs. And these solutions are always promoted from the developers POV. The
    simplification Linux needs is not new software or a new GUI, but rather simplification of choice and method. There are too many distros, and different distros have different 'spins', even more confusing! Sadly,
    even Puppy Linux is like that know, with multiple Puppies. Even *I*
    get confused! There is Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, this spin, that spin.
    There are multiple ways to do things, and which ones work depends on
    your distro. Developers believe that there should be a uniform look,
    but then they change their GUI, its a bit braindead to be honest. No
    one is in charge.

    In the ideal world, there would only be a small number of distros, you could count them on one hand, each one designed for a different use
    case (full PC, portable, single board PC), one package mangement system (RPM or DEB, I'm not fussed, but I prefer RPM) and sub-systems which
    can actually be understood, are well documented and don't constantly break. Pulseaudio would not exist and there would be no braindead
    ideas where the software tries to be too "clever", (pulse audio), and things would not break on updates. There would be agreement on
    standards. Software and hardware vendors would actually be able to release a package that will work for all Linux users.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the
    people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly
    being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is
    being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for
    such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...?
    I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and
    some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university
    stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche.
    Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same
    amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.

    Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly,
    for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying
    systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their
    system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.

    I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how
    active things are in the development side of things and gives any
    coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally,
    I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution
    should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro"
    rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps
    and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)

    There is choice that matters, and choice that doesn't. That is an individual thing too. For me, the important choices are being able to use the GUI I like, being able to have the system look and act the way I want, backward compatibility and being able to keep existing workflows and capacities. I don't really care about choice of package managers, as long as it works, or choice of distros (as long as the distro doesn't limit me), or choice of installer defaults (you can always change the options).


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 01:23:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture
    beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.

    This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
    the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
    is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
    being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.

    I agree that is not for everyone, but I'm always surprised when people
    who make a living writing software and install complex frameworks don't take advantage of it.

    Are they? Well, I don't write software for a living but if that's the
    case then they're definitely using a boat to travel the road.

    I don't know too many people, but I have seen it.


    This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
    unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
    running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
    depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
    as well.


    This is true. A friend of mine always had problems with Windows over
    time, he would install Windows 10 and after two years it would slow
    down to a crawl and would randomly throw errors at him which would then prompt him to reset his system. Rinse and repeat.

    Does Windows 10 still have this problem? I would have thought they would have solved this by now. Two years is a pretty good lifespan for a Windows install.

    Yeah, UI redesigns are a massive PITA from a user's standpoint.
    Suddenly things that you're used to aren't what they are. I really
    liked the old GNOME but then they completely went 180 with GNOME 3.
    Though it's great that MATE exists, users can't just rely to some concerned developer to fork the older, more desirable, version and maintain it. The lead developers themselves shouldn't just suddenly
    depart to their previous design language and expect everyone to use
    their system. To be honest, that's part of the reason why I just used
    CLI applications and stuck with a simple window manager, things are
    more consistent and are much more customizable; though of course window managers are not for everyone.

    It would have been better to make Gnome 3 another DE, and keep Gnome, or somehow manage the transition so that if you were using Gnome 2, and the next update put Gnome 3, you were booted into MATE, with your Gnome 2 settings. Maybe the distros could have made that happen.


    I think part of what I said earlier has to do with inertia that you've talked about in the other thread. Windows just has this decades long inertia to back it up and people who grew up using it wouldn't just
    give it up easily for something else. So yeah, I agree, usability comes with familiarity but Windows has so much familiarity that even if it is technically subpar compared to the other operating systems that people still find it usable.

    That and people use it at work, because it is always the safer option, professionally speaking, to use Windows.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 01:29:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
    time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
    and more ago.

    I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
    the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
    you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
    place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
    now.

    Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)

    Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not
    sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents
    of the repository.

    In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies
    with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that
    they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo
    and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint
    but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works.
    Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which
    some might care about.

    Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman
    has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.

    I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple
    and fast.

    OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GUI, shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a new Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do. Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying most of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Window Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Fri Aug 7 17:22:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers
    will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users.
    That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there
    is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to
    get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS",
    locked down.

    I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether
    the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the
    operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.

    I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net
    positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus
    for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus
    to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software
    support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.

    The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into
    GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I
    think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)

    I started using Linux in 2000, and back then the focus was on getting "mom" to use it. Linux users seemed to believe that "mom" had to use
    it, and this market was important to unseat Microsoft. I don't believe that anymore, and I think Linux will always be, and should be, niche. Also, I think the attempts are misguided, as the barrier is more to do with inertia, documentation, not the fact that Gnome wasn't controlled
    by systemd, or that we don't have apps which override window
    decorations, etc, or a containerised software installation system. My wife who is not computer literate navigates KDE Plasma just fine, as
    does my 8 year old daughter, who has been able to work the GUI for some time now. Linux is and has been usable for some time now.

    In part, the problem is that because Linux is a developers OS,
    developers approach the problem in terms of what new code can be
    written. So the "solution" always tend to be, more code, another standard, another frameworks, which is NOT what Linux needs. And these solutions are always promoted from the developers POV. The
    simplification Linux needs is not new software or a new GUI, but rather simplification of choice and method. There are too many distros, and different distros have different 'spins', even more confusing! Sadly,
    even Puppy Linux is like that know, with multiple Puppies. Even *I*
    get confused! There is Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, this spin, that spin.
    There are multiple ways to do things, and which ones work depends on
    your distro. Developers believe that there should be a uniform look,
    but then they change their GUI, its a bit braindead to be honest. No
    one is in charge.

    In the ideal world, there would only be a small number of distros, you could count them on one hand, each one designed for a different use
    case (full PC, portable, single board PC), one package mangement system (RPM or DEB, I'm not fussed, but I prefer RPM) and sub-systems which
    can actually be understood, are well documented and don't constantly break. Pulseaudio would not exist and there would be no braindead
    ideas where the software tries to be too "clever", (pulse audio), and things would not break on updates. There would be agreement on
    standards. Software and hardware vendors would actually be able to release a package that will work for all Linux users.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the
    people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly
    being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is
    being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for
    such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...?
    I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and
    some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university
    stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche.
    Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same
    amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.

    Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly,
    for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying
    systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their
    system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.

    I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how
    active things are in the development side of things and gives any
    coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally,
    I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution
    should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro"
    rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps
    and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)

    There is choice that matters, and choice that doesn't. That is an individual thing too. For me, the important choices are being able to
    use the GUI I like, being able to have the system look and act the way
    I want, backward compatibility and being able to keep existing
    workflows and capacities. I don't really care about choice of package managers, as long as it works, or choice of distros (as long as the
    distro doesn't limit me), or choice of installer defaults (you can
    always change the options).

    Yup, I agree. We shouldn't stife that individual choice which I think is central to how GNU/Linux works.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Fri Aug 7 17:30:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The benefits are indeed only realised for those willing to venture
    beyond what the graphical software spefically does. If you aren't the type to think of your own solutions, there probably is little benefit, aside from the lower cost and perhaps lesser hardware requirements.

    This is true. Most of the power in GNU/Linux lies in being able to use
    the command line. But doing so would take effort on the user's part to read and understand how things work. While I might argue that doing so
    is not that hard, not everyone has the motivation nor the time to sink into reading manuals just to figure how stuff works. Still, however,
    being to harness that would surely help you "elevate" your computing experience.

    I agree that is not for everyone, but I'm always surprised when people
    who make a living writing software and install complex frameworks don't take advantage of it.

    Are they? Well, I don't write software for a living but if that's the
    case then they're definitely using a boat to travel the road.

    I don't know too many people, but I have seen it.


    This is also true. I would even go as far as saying that problems that arise while using GNU/Linux, which aren't many, are easily solvable by either just reading the error message or by just searching about it and usually the first result would give the answer. Now that I've thought about it, I can't even recall a time when my install broke in some mysterious way. It's usually just either missing libraries or
    unresolved dependencies. Though it might also be because I'm not
    running a particularly heavy environment as well and my stuff don't
    depend on as much dependencies as, say, a usual Ubuntu or Mint install. But even then, I used to run Xubuntu and didn't have that much problems
    as well.


    This is true. A friend of mine always had problems with Windows over
    time, he would install Windows 10 and after two years it would slow
    down to a crawl and would randomly throw errors at him which would then prompt him to reset his system. Rinse and repeat.

    Does Windows 10 still have this problem? I would have thought they
    would have solved this by now. Two years is a pretty good lifespan for
    a Windows install.

    Sadly, yes. It was quite gut-wrenching for my friend as well because he had to sit through an afternoon of "refreshing windows" because his install has slowed to a crawl.

    Yeah, UI redesigns are a massive PITA from a user's standpoint.
    Suddenly things that you're used to aren't what they are. I really
    liked the old GNOME but then they completely went 180 with GNOME 3.
    Though it's great that MATE exists, users can't just rely to some concerned developer to fork the older, more desirable, version and maintain it. The lead developers themselves shouldn't just suddenly
    depart to their previous design language and expect everyone to use
    their system. To be honest, that's part of the reason why I just used
    CLI applications and stuck with a simple window manager, things are
    more consistent and are much more customizable; though of course window managers are not for everyone.

    It would have been better to make Gnome 3 another DE, and keep Gnome,
    or somehow manage the transition so that if you were using Gnome 2, and the next update put Gnome 3, you were booted into MATE, with your Gnome
    2 settings. Maybe the distros could have made that happen.

    Exactly, though I'd rather have them make GNOME 3 a separate endeavour altogether, it would have been nice if they didn't jam that to other people's throats and gave them an option to stick with the older DE.

    I think part of what I said earlier has to do with inertia that you've talked about in the other thread. Windows just has this decades long inertia to back it up and people who grew up using it wouldn't just
    give it up easily for something else. So yeah, I agree, usability comes with familiarity but Windows has so much familiarity that even if it is technically subpar compared to the other operating systems that people still find it usable.

    That and people use it at work, because it is always the safer option, professionally speaking, to use Windows.

    Yeah, I could see that would have made business sense.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Fri Aug 7 17:35:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
    time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
    and more ago.

    I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
    the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
    you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
    place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
    now.

    Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)

    Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not
    sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents
    of the repository.

    In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies
    with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that
    they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo
    and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint
    but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works.
    Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which
    some might care about.

    Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman
    has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.

    I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple
    and fast.

    OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the
    "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GUI, shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard
    software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a new Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do.
    Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying most
    of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Window Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the
    same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.

    Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove all of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jive, it would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just be adding stuff into it.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 7 19:41:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-

    On 08-06-20 09:14, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    On the other hand, mine's the exact reverse, haha! There are instances that I'm using older or more esoteric software and as such are often
    not provided in the package repositories, I usually end up compiling
    those ones from source if I can't find an .appimage or similar for it.

    Sometimes compiling older software on a modern distro can be a
    challenge too! :) I have struck that one myself.

    I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
    well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
    grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
    "esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
    that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
    first place.

    Yes, a lot of Windows is familiarity. I'm equally well versed in both Windows and Linux - both are equally familiar, as I have been running Linux since 1995, Windows only a few years earlier.

    One thing I do notice with Windows is other than the Microsoft
    components, upgrades are driven by individual vendors, while on Linux, updates are generally managed by the distribution maintainers. While
    the Linux way is great in that it's generally painless, and reboots are rarely needed (only when upgrading the kernel and possibly glibc), some apps, like Firefox aren't updated as promptly or automatically as they
    are on Windows.

    Just different ways of doing things.

    Yeah, I agree. It's basically just picking your own poison, haha! :-)

    True, though I do find it annoying when key desktop apps don't update
    on Linux like they do on Windows, even after using the distro's package management.

    What are the examples of these? I'm quite curious as I haven't really encountered any. But I think that's also because I don't use that much software anyway.

    ... Whatever happens, happens.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 7 19:43:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-

    On 08-06-20 09:19, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    For me, it depends on the application. A lot of ham radio applications these days are built for either Debian or Ubuntu, and there's often packages for only those distros (e.g. AllStar, DVSwitch) are easiest installed on Debian Stretch, where they can be installed from apt repositories.

    Oh wow. I've been thinking of getting into ham radio recently, just because of this whole pandemic thing is making me a bit looney at
    times. It's great that there's good support for those in GNU/Linux.

    It's good for these crazy times. I get on a "welfare net" most
    mornings, where hams around this end of the country get on and let each other know how things are going, and compare notes on lockdown
    survival. :)

    Man, that's so interesting. I should get a license too soon, but the pandemic really put a stop into anything here. Now we're facing an economic recession and just doing my morning reading of the news makes me sad.

    It's exactly this, isn't it? We use what fits the best for our needs. Though I do think there's also pleasure in just figuring how stuff
    works in different systems, if you have nothing better to do that is.
    :-P

    Haha I certainly don't have time, plenty of things on the go here.
    While I find the concept of Gentoo interesting, I can't see it working
    for me. :)

    ... The exception also declares the rule

    ... Not enough mail? Here, let me help...

    Haha I bet! :D


    ... Virtue is a relative term. Spock, Friday's Child, stardate 3499.1.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    = Synchronet = Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia.
    freeway.apana.org.au

    ... Whatever happens, happens.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 22:54:00 2020
    On 08-07-20 15:41, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    True, though I do find it annoying when key desktop apps don't update
    on Linux like they do on Windows, even after using the distro's package management.

    What are the examples of these? I'm quite curious as I haven't really encountered any. But I think that's also because I don't use that much software anyway.

    I have had distros install an old version of Firefox, and had to install a copy in my user profile from the Mozilla site, so it would update using its own mechanisms.


    ... Great thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get them.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 22:58:00 2020
    On 08-07-20 15:43, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    It's good for these crazy times. I get on a "welfare net" most
    mornings, where hams around this end of the country get on and let each other know how things are going, and compare notes on lockdown
    survival. :)

    Man, that's so interesting. I should get a license too soon, but the pandemic really put a stop into anything here. Now we're facing an economic recession and just doing my morning reading of the news makes
    me sad.

    We're up for a recession here too, though due to fortuitous circumstances, we're relatively insulated from the worst effects of it. Good news is there some cheap ways to get started, especially on the highly (and globally) networked VHF/UHF bands, which is where our nets operate.


    ... We're not retreating - we're advancing in another direction.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 06:29:57 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 07 2020 03:41 pm

    Hey man, super glad you're fitting in and enjoying yourself. This is not meant to be a killjoy message in any respect, but just a heads up:

    You don't need to include the entirety of previos messages in your reply quoting. Try to just quote the relevant and needed parts to remind people what you're replying to; for those reading on the typical 80x24 terminal screen a wall of reply quote can get in the way of message flow a bit.

    Sometime's it's a bit of an art to pick the quote lines appropriately, but I'm sure you'll get the hang of it quickly :)
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Sat Aug 8 00:07:00 2020
    Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for
    you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out
    of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove all of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since
    you have your own workflow jive, it would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just be adding stuff into it.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.

    Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something like that, which would have all the config options for a new install, or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the config you want at install.

    One spin, multiple outcomes.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 8 00:39:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-

    On 08-07-20 15:41, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    True, though I do find it annoying when key desktop apps don't update
    on Linux like they do on Windows, even after using the distro's package management.

    What are the examples of these? I'm quite curious as I haven't really encountered any. But I think that's also because I don't use that much software anyway.

    I have had distros install an old version of Firefox, and had to
    install a copy in my user profile from the Mozilla site, so it would update using its own mechanisms.


    Which distro? Distro's update the included software, but some have older versions. Debian for example will usually hold older versions of software because they update theirs less frequently. I like Debian, but I found when I tried it the age of the software was occasionally a problem, especially with youtube-dl which I use a lot.

    A better option is to use a distro that keeps modern, such as Fedora. I use Fedora and the versions of software included is new enough to not be a problem.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 16:14:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Dennisk on Fri Aug 07 2020 01:22 pm

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users. That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS", locked down.

    I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.

    I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.

    The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)

    I started using Linux in 2000, and back then the focus was on getting "mom" to use it. Linux users seemed to believe that "mom" had to use it, and this market was important to unseat Microsoft. I don't believe that anymore, and I think Linux will always be, and should be, niche. Also, I think the attempts are misguided, as the barrier is more to do with inertia, documentation, not the fact that Gnome wasn't controlled by systemd, or that we don't have apps which override window decorations, etc, or a containerised software installation system. My wife who is not computer literate navigates KDE Plasma just fine, as does my 8 year old daughter, who has been able to work the GUI for some time now. Linux is and has been usable for some time now.

    In part, the problem is that because Linux is a developers OS, developers approach the problem in terms of what new code can be written. So the "solution" always tend to be, more code, another standard, another frameworks, which is NOT what Linux needs. And these solutions are always promoted from the developers POV. The simplification Linux needs is not new software or a new GUI, but rather simplification of choice and method. There are too many distros, and different distros have different 'spins', even more confusing! Sadly, even Puppy Linux is like that know, with multiple Puppies. Even *I* get confused! There is Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, this spin, that spin.
    There are multiple ways to do things, and which ones work depends on your distro. Developers believe that there should be a uniform look, but then they change their GUI, its a bit braindead to be honest. No one is in charge.

    In the ideal world, there would only be a small number of distros, you could count them on one hand, each one designed for a different use case (full PC, portable, single board PC), one package mangement system (RPM or DEB, I'm not fussed, but I prefer RPM) and sub-systems which can actually be understood, are well documented and don't constantly break. Pulseaudio would not exist and there would be no braindead ideas where the software tries to be too "clever", (pulse audio), and things would not break on updates. There would be agreement on standards. Software and hardware vendors would actually be able to release a package that will work for all Linux users.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...? I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche. Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.

    Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly, for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.

    I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how active things are in the development side of things and gives any coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally, I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro" rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)

    There is choice that matters, and choice that doesn't. That is an individual thing too. For me, the important choices are being able to use the GUI I like, being able to have the system look and act the way I want, backward compatibility and being able to keep existing workflows and capacities. I don't really care about choice of package managers, as long as it works, or choice of distros (as long as the distro doesn't limit me), or choice of installer defaults (you can always change the options).

    Yup, I agree. We shouldn't stife that individual choice which I think is central to how GNU/Linux works.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.

    Linux users are a diverse group with diverse interests. The friendly desktop movement is probably second to the linux server side. Ubuntu and Mint are
    most likely the leaders in the desktop development, and all the little
    Windows and OSX lookalikes depend on these bigger distros momentum.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 16:19:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Dennisk on Fri Aug 07 2020 01:35 pm

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years and more ago.

    I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years now.

    Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)

    Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents of the repository.

    In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works. Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which some might care about.

    Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.

    I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple and fast.

    OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GUI, shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a new Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do. Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying most of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Window Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.

    Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove a of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jive, would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just b adding stuff into it.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually deve your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch" approach,
    however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if I got too deep in it,
    I wouldn't finish the process. Although if things go smoothly, I would try
    it again to see if i could streamline the process (and learn even more)

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Fri Aug 7 22:51:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Atroxi <=-

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch"
    approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if
    I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if
    things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could
    streamline the process (and learn even more)

    It's not real difficult - the instructions are pretty much
    step-by-step and all inclusive. Quite tedious after a while, and
    you end up with a bootable but not really useable system until you
    continue with adding everything you need (with BLFS for example).

    I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
    result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
    is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
    "guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
    software.

    Depends what your goals and needs are, I guess.



    ... All the easy problems have been solved.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From paulie420@VERT/BEERS20 to Nightfox on Fri Aug 7 22:00:00 2020
    Yep. Although I've thought about switching to Linux, I'm still using Windows as my main OS right now because I have things set up that way
    now and things are w orking okay for me.

    I think whatever works for you is best, but I'm so used to how customizable
    the OS is - I currently use KDE under Ubuntu and you can change ANY item/aspect/area of the OS. I have it like Big Bur MACOS right now...
    sometimes I create my own weird OS style... but I guess fore some people that would be a drawback. For me, its the reason.



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
    |08.........
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sat Aug 8 19:36:00 2020
    On 08-07-20 20:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Which distro? Distro's update the included software, but some have
    older versions. Debian for example will usually hold older versions of software because they update theirs less frequently. I like Debian,
    but I found when I tried it the age of the software was occasionally a problem, especially with youtube-dl which I use a lot.

    Yes, Debian often has older versions, if you use stable. I installed my own Firefox on Mint, IIRC.

    A better option is to use a distro that keeps modern, such as Fedora.
    I use Fedora and the versions of software included is new enough to not
    be a problem.

    I found the rapid release cycle and planned obolescence of Fedora a pain, but it is a solid distro.


    ... Crime doesn't pay... does that mean my job is a crime?
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Gamgee on Sat Aug 8 20:25:00 2020
    On 08-07-20 18:51, Gamgee wrote to Moondog <=-

    Re Linux from Scratch

    I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
    result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
    is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
    "guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
    software.

    Learning is probably the only reason I'd do it. Maybe if we get a stage 4 lockdown here, I may have to amuse myself that way. :)


    ... The city is not a concrete jungle. It is a human zoo.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 8 15:59:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-

    On 08-07-20 15:43, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    It's good for these crazy times. I get on a "welfare net" most
    mornings, where hams around this end of the country get on and let each other know how things are going, and compare notes on lockdown
    survival. :)

    Man, that's so interesting. I should get a license too soon, but the pandemic really put a stop into anything here. Now we're facing an economic recession and just doing my morning reading of the news makes
    me sad.

    We're up for a recession here too, though due to fortuitous
    circumstances, we're relatively insulated from the worst effects of it.
    Good news is there some cheap ways to get started, especially on the highly (and globally) networked VHF/UHF bands, which is where our nets operate.

    Oh, I would love to know more about some cheap ways to get started! :-)

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Underminer on Sat Aug 8 16:00:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Hey man, super glad you're fitting in and enjoying yourself. This is
    not meant to be a killjoy message in any respect, but just a heads up:

    You don't need to include the entirety of previos messages in your
    reply quoting. Try to just quote the relevant and needed parts to
    remind people what you're replying to; for those reading on the typical 80x24 terminal screen a wall of reply quote can get in the way of
    message flow a bit.

    Sometime's it's a bit of an art to pick the quote lines appropriately,
    but I'm sure you'll get the hang of it quickly :) ---

    I'm sorry! Yeah, it's quite a balance to not lose context and have a wall of text when the conversation has been going on for a while. I'll be more mindful from now on. :-)

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Sat Aug 8 16:05:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.

    Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something
    like that, which would have all the config options for a new install,
    or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the
    config you want at install.

    One spin, multiple outcomes.

    Oh, that's interesting. That's quite similar to what Guix is doing with their config.scm file on install. You can basically dictate how the system would install and configured, this includes all the user settings and such, in a simple file in the system. I even saw a very lean config file somewhere that installs nothing but the essentials. That might be something that would interest you.

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Moondog on Sat Aug 8 16:32:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Dennisk on
    Fri Aug 07 2020 01:22 pm

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...? I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche. Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.

    Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly, for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.

    I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how active things are in the development side of things and gives any coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally, I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro" rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)

    There is choice that matters, and choice that doesn't. That is an individual thing too. For me, the important choices are being able to use the GUI I like, being able to have the system look and act the way I want, backward compatibility and being able to keep existing workflows and capacities. I don't really care about choice of package managers, as long as it works, or choice of distros (as long as the distro doesn't limit me), or choice of installer defaults (you can always change the options).

    Yup, I agree. We shouldn't stife that individual choice which I think is central to how GNU/Linux works.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.

    Linux users are a diverse group with diverse interests. The friendly desktop movement is probably second to the linux server side. Ubuntu
    and Mint are most likely the leaders in the desktop development, and
    all the little Windows and OSX lookalikes depend on these bigger
    distros momentum.

    Yeah, I can see why that would be the case. As much as I want to think that most of the people running GNU/Linux as their desktops start with a minimal install it's just isn't the case and those distros at the forefront of GNU/Linux desktops would technically dictate what a GNU/Linux desktop would look like.

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Moondog on Sat Aug 8 16:37:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Dennisk on
    Fri Aug 07 2020 01:35 pm

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents of the repository.

    In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works. Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which some might care about.

    Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.

    I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple and fast.

    OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GUI, shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a new Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do. Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying most of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Window Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.

    Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove a of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jive, would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just b adding stuff into it.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually deve your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch" approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if I got too deep
    in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if things go smoothly,
    I would try it again to see if i could streamline the process (and
    learn even more)

    Oh man, I'm also tempted to do that as well but I guess I still don't have the balls (and the patience) to spend an afternoon (or even more) trying to diagnose issues when configuring and compiling everything manually as to compared to something like using portage. Even portage can be quite a challenge if you're not prepared for it, which I was certainly am when I first installed gentoo, haha! :-)

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Atroxi on Sat Aug 8 07:19:57 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Underminer on Sat Aug 08 2020 12:00 pm

    I'm sorry! Yeah, it's quite a balance to not lose context and have a wall of text when the conversation has been going on for a while. I'll be more mindful from now on. :-)

    Nothing to be sorry about, we were all new to this scene once. It just takes a slightly different mindset than email or web forums.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Sun Aug 9 01:41:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-07-20 20:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Which distro? Distro's update the included software, but some have
    older versions. Debian for example will usually hold older versions of software because they update theirs less frequently. I like Debian,
    but I found when I tried it the age of the software was occasionally a problem, especially with youtube-dl which I use a lot.

    Yes, Debian often has older versions, if you use stable. I installed
    my own Firefox on Mint, IIRC.

    A better option is to use a distro that keeps modern, such as Fedora.
    I use Fedora and the versions of software included is new enough to not
    be a problem.

    I found the rapid release cycle and planned obolescence of Fedora a
    pain, but it is a solid distro.

    I found that a pain in Fedora too, so much so, that at times I was looking at moving away to avoid having to update all the time.

    But I've gotten used to the updates, and the updates from version to version aren't that significant. It is almost like a rolling disto. So I stayed.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Sun Aug 9 01:44:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.

    Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something
    like that, which would have all the config options for a new install,
    or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the
    config you want at install.

    One spin, multiple outcomes.

    Oh, that's interesting. That's quite similar to what Guix is doing with their config.scm file on install. You can basically dictate how the
    system would install and configured, this includes all the user
    settings and such, in a simple file in the system. I even saw a very
    lean config file somewhere that installs nothing but the essentials.
    That might be something that would interest you.

    It's quite likely that its already been done, or thought of. I think it is a better solution than multiple spins, or spin-off distros. Simpler and less confusing.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Sun Aug 9 02:14:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Gamgee <=-

    On 08-07-20 18:51, Gamgee wrote to Moondog <=-

    Re Linux from Scratch

    I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
    result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
    is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
    "guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
    software.

    Learning is probably the only reason I'd do it. Maybe if we get a
    stage 4 lockdown here, I may have to amuse myself that way. :)

    If you are wanting to learn how to make a distro, it is useful. But if you want to learn Linux, and have time, I think it is much better to learn BASH scripting or better yet, the Unix toolset, awk, sed, cut, grep, and others, maybe groff as well. With this knowledge, you'd be able to create new and novel solutions. Or you can learn more customisation, editing existing scripts, or learning to configure FVWM.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Gamgee on Sat Aug 8 20:46:28 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Fri Aug 07 2020 06:51 pm

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch"
    approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if
    I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if
    things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could
    streamline the process (and learn even more)

    It's not real difficult - the instructions are pretty much
    step-by-step and all inclusive. Quite tedious after a while, and
    you end up with a bootable but not really useable system until you continue with adding everything you need (with BLFS for example).

    I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
    result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
    is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
    "guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
    software.

    running Gentoo taught me more about Linux than any other distro ever did. Granted, back when I first started, I was bootstrapping with stage 1, and now it just installs a base system that you eventually recompile after modifying your use flags and tweaking your compiler settings.

    I currently have a gentoo install that's about 6 years old, it's gone through 2 different CPUs and 3 different motherboards. It still runs great.

    It's definitely frustrating though when you get upgrading conflicts, but luckilly the gentoo forums hold of wealth of information on solving just about any issue you run into.

    DaiTengu

    ... Extreme boredom serves to cure boredom.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Sun Aug 9 03:09:00 2020
    DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Fri Aug 07 2020 06:51 pm

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch"
    approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if
    I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if
    things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could
    streamline the process (and learn even more)

    It's not real difficult - the instructions are pretty much
    step-by-step and all inclusive. Quite tedious after a while, and
    you end up with a bootable but not really useable system until you continue with adding everything you need (with BLFS for example).

    I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
    result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
    is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
    "guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
    software.

    running Gentoo taught me more about Linux than any other distro
    ever did. Granted, back when I first started, I was bootstrapping
    with stage 1, and now it just installs a base system that you
    eventually recompile after modifying your use flags and tweaking
    your compiler settings.

    Yes, I have tried Gentoo a couple of times (long ago now), and
    liked it pretty well. I eventually settled on Slackware and have
    used it for years now, but Gentoo would be on my short-list of
    alternate distros should I ever have to switch.

    I currently have a gentoo install that's about 6 years old, it's
    gone through 2 different CPUs and 3 different motherboards. It
    still runs great.

    Nice. One of the joys of running Linux. It just........ works.

    It's definitely frustrating though when you get upgrading
    conflicts, but luckilly the gentoo forums hold of wealth of
    information on solving just about any issue you run into.

    Yes, they are well-regarded sources of info, even by others who
    don't use Gentoo. I have referred to those forums quite a few
    times over the years.

    Glad to hear there are still some who use it - it has lost favor
    compared to years ago when everything was new, but that doesn't
    mean it isn't good. I know that well, being a Slackware user.
    :-)


    ... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Atroxi on Sat Aug 8 21:27:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Moondog on Sat Aug 08 2020 12:37 pm


    Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags an stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec fas boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from "user maintaing the system" standpoint.

    I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple and fast.

    OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GU shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying mo of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Windo Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.

    Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me an would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remov of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actua now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jiv would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll jus adding stuff into it.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at s point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually d your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch" approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could streamline the process (and learn even more)

    Oh man, I'm also tempted to do that as well but I guess I still don't have t balls (and the patience) to spend an afternoon (or even more) trying to diagnose issues when configuring and compiling everything manually as to compared to something like using portage. Even portage can be quite a challe if you're not prepared for it, which I was certainly am when I first install gentoo, haha! :-)

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.

    I figure any issues I would have would be typing and spelling related


    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun Aug 9 22:52:00 2020
    On 08-08-20 21:41, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I found that a pain in Fedora too, so much so, that at times I was
    looking at moving away to avoid having to update all the time.

    But I've gotten used to the updates, and the updates from version to version aren't that significant. It is almost like a rolling disto.
    So I stayed.

    Interesting, how do you manage that? That could be a useful way to treat Fedora.


    ... No, no, nurse! I said SLIP off his SPECTACLES!!
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun Aug 9 22:56:00 2020
    On 08-08-20 22:14, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    If you are wanting to learn how to make a distro, it is useful. But if you want to learn Linux, and have time, I think it is much better to
    learn BASH scripting or better yet, the Unix toolset, awk, sed, cut,
    grep, and others, maybe groff as well. With this knowledge, you'd be
    able to create new and novel solutions. Or you can learn more

    Yes, that's the direction I ended up going myself. :)

    customisation, editing existing scripts, or learning to configure FVWM.

    All good things to learn.


    ... The answer is "maybe" ... and that's semi-final
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Mon Aug 10 02:01:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-08-20 21:41, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I found that a pain in Fedora too, so much so, that at times I was
    looking at moving away to avoid having to update all the time.

    But I've gotten used to the updates, and the updates from version to version aren't that significant. It is almost like a rolling disto.
    So I stayed.

    Interesting, how do you manage that? That could be a useful way to
    treat Fedora.

    Fedora release a major release version every 6 months or so. I usually skip a version, so I update once a year, or so. So I might go from 29 to 31 to 33. Sometimes I skip, sometimes I don't.

    But because the updates are frequent, there are fewer changes between them. Most of the time, I don't really notice a difference because my system is highly customised. There is only 6 months between a release, so Fedora 31 is only 6 months or so ahead of Fedora 30, and Fedora 30 gets updated. That means when you update, you aren't jumping that far forward.

    Whereas Debian, because its more stable, you really notice the difference between debian 9 and 10.

    My desktop was a Fedora 17 or so install, that has been continuously updated to Fedora 31, and due for one now. Most of the time, the update just means minor updates to versions. KDE 4 to KDE 5 was the only "breaking" change, and that was years ago.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Andeddu on Wed Aug 5 10:56:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-

    I absolutely maintain that iOS and Android are killing Windows. I am
    not sure if Windows are as dominant as they used to be in the corporate world, but they're taking losses everywhere else. Their Windows Phone
    OS bombed hard, and I am glad of it.

    The corporate world is hardcore Intel, Windows and Azure and
    Microsoft 365. They're doing just fine.

    ... If you have a rotary phone, please press 1 now.
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Underminer on Wed Aug 5 12:33:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Windows is stable. That's a good one. It's better than previous
    offerings in some cases, but much much worse in others, for one You
    still measure stable uptime on most Windows systems in hours, sometimes days, past that you still start to get increasingly weird problems.

    I haven't had to schedule production maintenance windows around a reboot
    schedule in 10 years.

    That's fine for playing games, which I understand is your priority, but when you start dealing with production or productivity environments
    it's laughably horrible.

    Nope, it works.

    Then there's the frequency with which auto
    updates, which you have very very little control over, have a bad
    tendency to either require and auto reboot systems, or break critical functionality until a reboot - and they can't even manage to leave user settings alone without wiping them out half the time.

    In corporate environments you're testing patches and pushing them out
    using WSUS or a similar management platform - especially on your
    server environment. Or, you've paid for a platform like Ivanti, which
    manages office, windows and 3rd party patches with one platform.

    Once again, fine
    for gaming, but the frequency with which I get frantic calls from
    clients who have had a mission critical system or functionality break during work hours because of an unavoidable update or other random
    event is higher than it has been since Vista.

    If you're on a domain, I could imagine a SMB IT Manager setting up
    via group policy a group of test machines to receive patches first,
    then set the rest of the systems to download only. As an IT manager,
    you patch on Tuesday, test on Wednesday, and tell everyone to patch
    on Thursday.

    I'd claim that those issues plague SMBs more than enterprise, and
    Microsoft has a gap there. They need to look at a solution for small
    businesses to better manage their patching, but I could imagine they
    look at it as it's better to crash a few boxes than to let a few
    million miss a critical patch.

    Now, I could imagine them pushing Azure cloud services as a solution
    instead of patch management. It's a shame, I made a good deal of
    money selling Small Business Server back in the 2000s. It's a nice
    little package for small offices.




    ... FOR SYSOP USE ONLY - Do not write below this line.
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Gamgee on Sun Aug 9 18:53:48 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Sat Aug 08 2020 11:09 pm

    I currently have a gentoo install that's about 6 years old, it's
    gone through 2 different CPUs and 3 different motherboards. It
    still runs great.

    Nice. One of the joys of running Linux. It just........ works.

    Most of the time. I remember trying to install Arch once a few years back on a laptop, and that just didn't go well for me.

    It's definitely frustrating though when you get upgrading
    conflicts, but luckilly the gentoo forums hold of wealth of
    information on solving just about any issue you run into.

    Yes, they are well-regarded sources of info, even by others who
    don't use Gentoo. I have referred to those forums quite a few
    times over the years.

    Glad to hear there are still some who use it - it has lost favor
    compared to years ago when everything was new, but that doesn't
    mean it isn't good. I know that well, being a Slackware user.

    Slackware was my first distro back in the mid 90's. I remember starting a kernel compile, and having to let it run overnight.


    Slackware is the base system that my NAS runs on, using a system called "UnRAID". So I still get to tinker with it from time to time. :)

    DaiTengu

    ... When in doubt, predict that the trend will continue.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 00:54:14 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 06:56 am

    The corporate world is hardcore Intel, Windows and Azure and
    Microsoft 365. They're doing just fine.

    Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they switch to Linux or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I am not aware of too many folk who build their own machines with the intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 13:29:00 2020
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Underminer <=-

    Underminer wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Windows is stable. That's a good one. It's better than previous
    offerings in some cases, but much much worse in others, for one You
    still measure stable uptime on most Windows systems in hours, sometimes days, past that you still start to get increasingly weird problems.

    I haven't had to schedule production maintenance windows around a
    reboot
    schedule in 10 years.

    That's fine for playing games, which I understand is your priority, but when you start dealing with production or productivity environments
    it's laughably horrible.

    Nope, it works.

    Then there's the frequency with which auto
    updates, which you have very very little control over, have a bad
    tendency to either require and auto reboot systems, or break critical functionality until a reboot - and they can't even manage to leave user settings alone without wiping them out half the time.

    In corporate environments you're testing patches and pushing them out
    using WSUS or a similar management platform - especially on your
    server environment. Or, you've paid for a platform like Ivanti, which
    manages office, windows and 3rd party patches with one platform.

    Once again, fine
    for gaming, but the frequency with which I get frantic calls from
    clients who have had a mission critical system or functionality break during work hours because of an unavoidable update or other random
    event is higher than it has been since Vista.

    If you're on a domain, I could imagine a SMB IT Manager setting up
    via group policy a group of test machines to receive patches first,
    then set the rest of the systems to download only. As an IT manager,
    you patch on Tuesday, test on Wednesday, and tell everyone to patch
    on Thursday.

    I'd claim that those issues plague SMBs more than enterprise, and
    Microsoft has a gap there. They need to look at a solution for small
    businesses to better manage their patching, but I could imagine they
    look at it as it's better to crash a few boxes than to let a few
    million miss a critical patch.

    Now, I could imagine them pushing Azure cloud services as a solution
    instead of patch management. It's a shame, I made a good deal of
    money selling Small Business Server back in the 2000s. It's a nice
    little package for small offices.

    I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.


    ... Heisenberg may have slept here.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 9 19:25:35 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Underminer on Wed Aug 05 2020 08:33 am

    Nope, it works.

    No, it really really doesn't.

    The fact that it's possible to work around the problems and mitigate them doesn't make the core experience stable or good. In environments where the financial and time resources are there, I too have mitigated the issues; that doesn't change that Windows itself, and most of the whole ecosystem is a hacked and patched together mess.

    Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembling real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it for you.

    Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.

    Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Mon Aug 10 01:08:47 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:29 am

    I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.



    it's overnight. and it's very subtle.
    most of your programs will be re-opened.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Underminer on Mon Aug 10 01:09:58 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 09 2020 03:25 pm

    Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembling real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it for you.

    Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.

    Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont have problems with it.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to MRO on Mon Aug 10 02:29:26 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: MRO to Underminer on Sun Aug 09 2020 09:09 pm

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont have problems with it. ---

    It's not "hard," it's needlessly aggravating. It's like... imagine if you had a car where you had to walk around and unlock all the doors before any would open, and 90% of the cars on the market worked like that, then you get a car that has remote start and try to explain to people that the "normal" way of doing things is broken and there's a much better system out there, but all you get back is that walking around to all 4 doors and putting your key in works just fine, and they ask why it's so hard for you.... it isn't, but it's stupid.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From paulie420@VERT/BEERS20 to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 10 02:58:00 2020
    Nice. One of the joys of running Linux. It just........ works.
    Most of the time. I remember trying to install Arch once a few years back on a laptop, and that just didn't go well for me.

    If you ever are wanting Arch again, google ARCHFI and use that script to do
    the installation... it guides you thru install; you don't have to know the inner workings of linux to get wifi and other essentials going.

    However, I suggest that people use Archfi once and then go back and learn the linuxy stuff... its great knowledge to have, if you ever have to dig in on other systems some day.

    I can get around a linux box pretty good, even if theres no decent GUI
    systems.



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
    |08.........
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Mon Aug 10 20:28:00 2020
    On 08-09-20 22:01, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    My desktop was a Fedora 17 or so install, that has been continuously updated to Fedora 31, and due for one now. Most of the time, the
    update just means minor updates to versions. KDE 4 to KDE 5 was the
    only "breaking" change, and that was years ago.

    Sounds good, but the key detail is what's the process for such updating to create the effective "rolling distro"?


    ... "Aw, mom, you act like I'm not even wearing a bungee cord!"
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Hatton@VERT/THRCORN to Dennisk on Mon Aug 10 07:44:04 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:29 am

    I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.

    Windows updates often run on their own unless your company has set up an Update Server. Those give your Systems Administrator (or team) the ability to screen and install updates based on their schedule instead of Redmond's.

    73 de NY5I
    Hatton

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Three Corners and Beyond! http://3corners.us
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to MRO on Tue Aug 11 00:44:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:29 am

    I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.


    I shut down my machine at the end of the day. Must be during the day. Or maybe Windows doesn't get updates at all.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 11 00:46:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-09-20 22:01, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    My desktop was a Fedora 17 or so install, that has been continuously updated to Fedora 31, and due for one now. Most of the time, the
    update just means minor updates to versions. KDE 4 to KDE 5 was the
    only "breaking" change, and that was years ago.

    Sounds good, but the key detail is what's the process for such updating
    to create the effective "rolling distro"?

    I think the key detail is that the difference between an up to date Fedora 31, and the Fedora 32 release, is most of the time not that significant. So even though you still make the "leap" from Fedora 31 to 32 then to 33, etc, that "leap" is actually a small step.



    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to MRO on Tue Aug 11 00:50:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Underminer <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 09 2020 03:25 pm

    Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembling real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it for you.

    Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.

    Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Mon Aug 10 01:02:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.

    Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something
    like that, which would have all the config options for a new install,
    or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the
    config you want at install.

    One spin, multiple outcomes.

    Oh, that's interesting. That's quite similar to what Guix is doing with their config.scm file on install. You can basically dictate how the
    system would install and configured, this includes all the user
    settings and such, in a simple file in the system. I even saw a very
    lean config file somewhere that installs nothing but the essentials.
    That might be something that would interest you.

    It's quite likely that its already been done, or thought of. I think
    it is a better solution than multiple spins, or spin-off distros.
    Simpler and less confusing.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    = Synchronet = End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com

    Yup, I agree.

    ... Silence cannot be misquoted.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 10 11:38:18 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: DaiTengu to Gamgee on Sun Aug 09 2020 02:53 pm

    Slackware was my first distro back in the mid 90's. I remember starting a kernel compile, and having to let it run overnig


    Slackware is the base system that my NAS runs on, using a system called "UnRAID". So I still get to tinker with it from time
    time. :)

    I am also an Slacker here. I really like the distribution. It is really designed to management tools don't block your way. It
    reminds me so much of BSD.

    Sadly,Slackware has been losing ground to OpenBSD in my networks since Patrick has such bad communication issues. The current
    -stable release of Slackware is getting a bit outdated for some tasks and I find myself upgrading those boxes to OpenBSD
    -release. Slackware development is very active - changelogs scrolling blazing fast - but we don't get a picture of that the
    release goals are and what we can expect.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 11:49:14 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 09 2020 08:54 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 06:56 am

    The corporate world is hardcore Intel, Windows and Azure and
    Microsoft 365. They're doing just fine.

    Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they
    switch to Linux or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I am not aware of too many folk who bui
    their own machines with the intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.


    Microsoft does not make the bulk of their money from selling you a software license. They don't give a damn if you pirate the
    hell out of it. They want you to use Microsoft Office, pirated or not, because that way they ensure the dominant document
    format in the IT ecosystem is one they control. Then they can charge multiple kilobucks to enterprise customers if they want to
    do fancy stuff with that format.

    Or patent troll you, or whatever.

    I don't build my own machines with the intention of screwing Microsoft, but I certainly build them from used components or buy
    used ones because that is so much more cost effective. Running Linux or OpenBSD on top of them certainly prevents a MS Windows
    sale.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Mon Aug 10 13:19:13 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: MRO to Underminer on Sun Aug 09 2020 09:09 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 09 2020 03:25 pm

    Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembli
    real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it
    you.

    Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone
    system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.

    Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont have problems with it.

    Make a program that a fool could use, and only a fool will want to use it.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Mon Aug 10 22:59:20 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 07:49 am

    Microsoft does not make the bulk of their money from selling you a software license. They don't give a damn if you pirate the
    hell out of it. They want you to use Microsoft Office, pirated or not, because that way they ensure the dominant document
    format in the IT ecosystem is one they control. Then they can charge multiple kilobucks to enterprise customers if they want to
    do fancy stuff with that format.

    Or patent troll you, or whatever.

    I don't build my own machines with the intention of screwing Microsoft, but I certainly build them from used components or buy
    used ones because that is so much more cost effective. Running Linux or OpenBSD on top of them certainly prevents a MS Windows
    sale.

    Yeah, I can see that. I don't know what proportion of their profits come from the home computer sector, but it'll be a tiny fraction compared to the business sector.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Hatton on Tue Aug 11 00:51:00 2020
    On 10 Aug 2020, Hatton said the following...

    Windows updates often run on their own unless your company has set up an U Server. Those give your Systems Administrator (or team) the ability to scr d install updates based on their schedule instead of Redmond's.

    For us the biggest advantage (other than being able to control what gets updated when) is having one server reaching out to the internet to download
    the updates. Then all of our servers & workstations can download from that
    one server, saving on bandwidth and speeding up installations.

    Jay

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/06 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Underminer on Tue Aug 11 01:12:23 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to MRO on Sun Aug 09 2020 10:29 pm

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    It's not "hard," it's needlessly aggravating. It's like... imagine if you had a car where you had to walk around and unlock all the doors before any would open, and 90% of the cars on the market worked like that, then you get a car that has remote start and try to explain to people that the "normal" way of doing things is broken and there's a much better system out there, but all you get back is that walking around to all 4 doors and putting your key in works just fine, and they ask why it's so hard for you.... it isn't, but it's stupid.


    i just use it to run my programs. i dont battle with it. i have a network setup with 6 computers, some of them linux.

    i use windows and linux in harmony. i dont really see why you get aggrivated by windows.

    maybe there are some 3rd party programs you could use to tweak it to your liking.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Tue Aug 11 01:13:04 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:44 pm

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:29 am

    I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never
    seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the
    software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.


    I shut down my machine at the end of the day. Must be during the day. Or maybe Windows doesn't get updates at all.


    or so you THINK!
    maybe it turns itself on and then turns off again
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Tue Aug 11 01:13:57 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 22:35:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they switch to Linux
    or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I
    am not aware of too many folk who build their own machines with the
    intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.

    Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
    Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.


    ... Be extravagant
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Tue Aug 11 01:32:45 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:19 am


    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it.

    Make a program that a fool could use, and only a fool will want to use it.

    guess i'm a fool. but i have no problems :D
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Hatton@VERT/THRCORN to Warpslide on Tue Aug 11 05:28:04 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Warpslide to Hatton on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:51 pm

    For us the biggest advantage (other than being able to control what gets updated when) is having one server reaching out to the internet to download the updates. Then all of our servers & workstations can download from that one server, saving on bandwidth and speeding up installations.

    Yeah, there is that aspect as well. Given bandwidth and scheduling options that doesn't always have an impact but it's a plus regardless

    73 de NY5I
    Hatton

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Three Corners and Beyond! http://3corners.us
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to MRO on Tue Aug 11 01:10:29 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: MRO to Underminer on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:12 pm

    i use windows and linux in harmony. i dont really see why you get aggrivated by windows.

    I deal with and support this junk all day, so I have a very low tolerance left for annoyances with it for my own usage. Likewise, decades of deskside support, depot work, and IT consulting have bombarded me with the multitude of really stupid ways Windows environments can fail. Linux isn't immune to that, but I find it easier to avoid. If you prefer Windows, by all means use it.

    I've managed to get rid of all Windows systems on my personal and business networks except for one remaining exchange mailbox server, and while it admittedly only needs attention and reboot every few months, the postfix/amavis/dovecot system two feet from it last needed rebooting some number of YEARS ago, even with Kernel updates along the way. Once again, if you prefer Windows, fine, just don't claim it's similarly stable - there's a world of difference.

    But the big reason is that while I can make Linux conform to my desired workflow, I have to adjust my workflow to conform to Microsoft's way of doing things in Windows. That's fundamentally backwards to my mind. Once again, if you prefer the default flow, or your workflow doesn't benefit from alterations, cool be happy in your choice. But there's those of us for whom the default is restrictive and sometimes borderline oppressive. Hell, the ease of automation with bash and cron vs powershell and task scheduler is a prime example for some.

    maybe there are some 3rd party programs you could use to tweak it to your liking. ---

    Absolutely. The 3rd party program I prefer most is called Linux ;)
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to MRO on Wed Aug 12 01:44:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Underminer on Tue Aug 11 16:42:59 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:10 pm


    i use windows and linux in harmony. i dont really see why you get
    aggrivated by windows.

    I deal with and support this junk all day, so I have a very low tolerance left for annoyances with it for my own usage. Likewise, decades of deskside support, depot work, and IT consulting have bombarded me with the multitude of really stupid ways Windows environments can fail. Linux isn't immune to that, but I find it easier to avoid. If you prefer Windows, by all means use it.


    well i consider it a tool. and i control the tool, i dont let it control me. i've used windows and linux for a long time. i prefer linux for servers, and i prefer windows for desktop. i use my own custom scripts and *nix style programs in windows, so i'm not really using the default.

    anyways, i think windows 10 is great for most people. they really have done a great job with this one.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Tue Aug 11 16:43:33 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Tue Aug 11 2020 09:44 pm


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have
    problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.


    oh yeah, we have that at my workplace. they are so smart they get distracted easily and arent productive.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 11 17:51:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:35 pm

    Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they switch to Linux or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I am not aware of too many folk who build their own machines with the intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.

    Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
    Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.


    ... Be extravagant

    I'm not sure if Dell still does it, but through their small and large
    business account system you can order equipment without an OS. They say they cannot ship without an OS, so they ship along a CD of FreeDOS. A place I use to work at received some Xeros wide format printers for printing E sized bluprints, and the controller / rip server for the scanner and printer was a low profile mini-tower with a touch panel interface and a fancy interface
    card for the printer and scanner. The machines shipped with FreeDOS, and the Xerox XES tech loaded all the CD's and activated the licenses for all the features. The only time a monitor was needed was during setup, and the first thing the tech did was install the generic system image built on linux, then installed all the hardware specific drivers from another CD. Once finished
    he changed some settings in a .conf file and the machine booted up to the Pritner's interface program sized for the smal LCD touch display. The rest could be done through the admin interface on thge tiny display.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 11 21:13:47 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:35 pm

    Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
    Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.

    Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 20:26:13 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 11 2020 05:13 pm

    Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?

    The argument was based on the MS TOS that stated you could get a refund. However Microsoft required the OEM Vendors to provide the refund, so nobody received one from Microsoft. It did however do a good job at promoting Free Software concerns.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 06:54:22 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 11 2020 05:13 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:35 pm

    Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
    Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.

    Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... sure
    that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?


    Some people was successful.

    This lead to Microsoft changing their EULA screen. Before the refunding claims, their EULA screen allowed you to reject the Windows license on first boot/install, which
    prevented you from using Windows. Purchasers would film themselves clicking on the "I don't agree" button and using it as a graphical evidence that thei didn't agree
    with the EULA after reading - because you know, you don't get to read the EULA before you purchase the computer - and claim for the refund.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Wed Aug 12 21:32:00 2020
    On 08-10-20 20:46, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I think the key detail is that the difference between an up to date
    Fedora 31, and the Fedora 32 release, is most of the time not that significant. So even though you still make the "leap" from Fedora 31
    to 32 then to 33, etc, that "leap" is actually a small step.

    That's not a helpful practical detail, just a statement of what appears to be fact. I'm more interested in the process used. I know how Debian is upgraded, and I don't know what other distros can be successfully upgraded in a similar way.


    ... It's best to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 13 01:25:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-10-20 20:46, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I think the key detail is that the difference between an up to date
    Fedora 31, and the Fedora 32 release, is most of the time not that significant. So even though you still make the "leap" from Fedora 31
    to 32 then to 33, etc, that "leap" is actually a small step.

    That's not a helpful practical detail, just a statement of what appears
    to be fact. I'm more interested in the process used. I know how
    Debian is upgraded, and I don't know what other distros can be successfully upgraded in a similar way.

    Fedora is updated in a very similar way to Debian. DNF is Fedora's equivalent of APT. You use DNF to do a system upgrade, by passing a system-upgrade flag and the version you want to upgrade to.

    In essense, its

    dnf system-upgrade download --releasever=32
    sudo dnf system-upgrade reboot

    The first downloads the packages, then the system reboots and updates the packages.

    It is very similar to a regular update, except for the package installation happening after a reboot (and before you can login). I've updated Debian from one release to another, and the process is very similar. If I recall correctly, Debian doesn't lock the user out while the packages are update, but that is a minor thing for me.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 13:35:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon
    it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were
    happy with the transaction at the time?

    I'm pretty sure that their angle was that they didn't agree to the
    clickwrap agreement and asked for a refund. It worked, but there were
    a lot of hoops.



    ... Emphasize differences
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Underminer on Wed Aug 12 21:10:26 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 04:26 pm

    The argument was based on the MS TOS that stated you could get a refund. However Microsoft required the OEM Vendors to provide the refund, so nobody received one from Microsoft. It did however do a good job at promoting Free Software concerns.

    Great to hear. I may not be the biggest critic of Microsoft but I am an advocate of consumer rights.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 01:34:18 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 11 2020 05:13 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:35 pm

    Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
    Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.

    Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?


    take a wild guess. the answer is nope
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Fri Aug 14 00:11:00 2020
    On 08-12-20 21:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Fedora is updated in a very similar way to Debian. DNF is Fedora's equivalent of APT. You use DNF to do a system upgrade, by passing a system-upgrade flag and the version you want to upgrade to.

    Oh, OK, so they've gone away from YUM? Not sure I like the sound of "DNF", in my game it means "Did Not Finish". ;)

    Anyway, that makes sense, and that would make Fedora a more interesting proposition.


    ... Insufficient facts always invite danger. Spock, stardate 3141.9.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Fri Aug 14 00:27:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.

    Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).

    ... Are you happy?
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 14 13:49:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-12-20 21:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Fedora is updated in a very similar way to Debian. DNF is Fedora's equivalent of APT. You use DNF to do a system upgrade, by passing a system-upgrade flag and the version you want to upgrade to.

    Oh, OK, so they've gone away from YUM? Not sure I like the sound of "DNF", in my game it means "Did Not Finish". ;)

    Anyway, that makes sense, and that would make Fedora a more interesting proposition.

    Yes, they moved away from Yum years ago. IIRC, DNF is native code, Yum was python, so DNF is a bit faster. DNF was pretty much a drop in replacement for Yum.

    I only use Fedora because my first distro was a Red Hat based one (Definite Linux 7.0) , then I moved to Red Hat (I think 6.2? 7.0?). I stuck with what I know, and Fedora has the packages that I'm used to having installed on my system.

    ... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Fri Aug 14 14:11:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.

    Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap
    out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and
    aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into
    a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system
    just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found
    GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).

    Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner. I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell, streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc, occasionally using my own copy of a binary instead of the distro one (I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).

    ... Heisenberg may have slept here.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Fri Aug 14 17:41:00 2020
    On 08-14-20 09:49, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yes, they moved away from Yum years ago. IIRC, DNF is native code, Yum was python, so DNF is a bit faster. DNF was pretty much a drop in replacement for Yum.

    Ahh OK, cool. So won't be an issue to learn, I am still familiar with yum. :)

    I only use Fedora because my first distro was a Red Hat based one (Definite Linux 7.0) , then I moved to Red Hat (I think 6.2? 7.0?). I stuck with what I know, and Fedora has the packages that I'm used to having installed on my system.

    I started with Ygdrasil(sp?), then Slackware, then moved to Red Hat for a number of years, but in recent years (last 10 or so), I've drifted across to Debian style distros. :)

    A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.


    ... A diplomat is a man who thinks twice before saying nothing.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 15 02:25:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-14-20 09:49, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yes, they moved away from Yum years ago. IIRC, DNF is native code, Yum was python, so DNF is a bit faster. DNF was pretty much a drop in replacement for Yum.

    Ahh OK, cool. So won't be an issue to learn, I am still familiar with yum. :)

    There were some differences with the API, and how it works internally, but from the POV of a user, its almost exactly the same. You likely won't have to do anything different except type "dnf" where you used to type "yum".

    I only use Fedora because my first distro was a Red Hat based one (Definite Linux 7.0) , then I moved to Red Hat (I think 6.2? 7.0?). I stuck with what I know, and Fedora has the packages that I'm used to having installed on my system.

    I started with Ygdrasil(sp?), then Slackware, then moved to Red Hat for
    a number of years, but in recent years (last 10 or so), I've drifted across to Debian style distros. :)

    A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.

    Stick with what works for you. I don't feel the need to evangelise any particular distro, but if you do want to remain up to date, Fedora is great in that regard.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to paulie420 on Fri Aug 14 18:35:47 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: paulie420 to DaiTengu on Sun Aug 09 2020 10:58 pm

    If you ever are wanting Arch again, google ARCHFI and use that script to do the installation... it guides you thru install; you don't have to know the inner workings of linux to get wifi and other essentials going.

    However, I suggest that people use Archfi once and then go back and learn the linuxy stuff... its great knowledge to have, if you ever have to dig in on other systems some day.


    Linux is literally my day job. :)

    I'm a sysadmin for a large adtech company. I manage about 2000 physical servers and a couple hundred virtual ones.

    It's been some time since I tried to play with Arch, I keep meaning to go back to it, but honestly, dealing with Linux all day really has killed my desire to tinker with it in my free time. :)

    DaiTengu

    ... The worst thing about censorship is ██████████.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Arelor on Fri Aug 14 18:42:04 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 10 2020 07:38 am

    Sadly,Slackware has been losing ground to OpenBSD in my networks since Patrick has such bad communication issues. The current -stable release of Slackware is getting a bit outdated for some tasks and I find myself upgrading those boxes to OpenBSD -release. Slackware development is very active - changelogs scrolling blazing fast - but we don't get a picture of that the release goals are and what we can expect.

    Roadmaps are nice to have, especially with huge open source projects like distros. It sounds like they just don't quite have a "big picture" group as to where they want to go.

    The only machine I run any kind of *BSD on here is my pfSense router. I haven't used it in any production environment in about a decade.

    My go-to choice for any kind of production server is CentOS. It's stable, and that's often what I need.

    DaiTengu

    ... I can't promise anything but I can promise 100%.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Arelor on Fri Aug 14 18:47:55 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:19 am

    s windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it.

    Make a program that a fool could use, and only a fool will want to use it.

    I run windows on my main PC here at home. I have multiple "other" PCs that all run some flavor of Linux. (the Laptop I'm typing this on right now is on Fedora 32, I have another laptop that I rarely touch anymore that runs SuSE, my main "devbox" runs Gentoo and my NAS / Server runs unRAID which is built on Slackware. That hosts a bunch of docker containers and a couple VMs.)

    Mostly the Windows PC is still there for games, but I do have some software applications that I depend upon that will only run on Windows (and not through Wine).

    DaiTengu

    ... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Sat Aug 15 08:12:27 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: DaiTengu to Arelor on Fri Aug 14 2020 02:42 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 10 2020 07:38 am

    Sadly,Slackware has been losing ground to OpenBSD in my networks since Patrick has such bad communication issues. The current -stable release of Slackware is
    getting a bit outdated for some tasks and I find myself upgrading those boxes to OpenBSD -release. Slackware development is very active - changelogs scrolling
    blazing fast - but we don't get a picture of that the release goals are and what we can expect.

    Roadmaps are nice to have, especially with huge open source projects like distros. It sounds like they just don't quite have a "big picture" group as to where they
    want to go.

    The only machine I run any kind of *BSD on here is my pfSense router. I haven't used it in any production environment in about a decade.

    My go-to choice for any kind of production server is CentOS. It's stable, and that's often what I need.

    DaiTengu

    ... I can't promise anything but I can promise 100%.


    Heh, just a word of warning. It looks like IBM is doing IBM things and started quietly outsourcing what Red Hat's team used to do to India. So much for their promises of
    letting Red Hat be the same it always was...

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Arelor on Sat Aug 15 15:06:45 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to DaiTengu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:12 am


    Heh, just a word of warning. It looks like IBM is doing IBM things and started quietly outsourcing what Red Hat's team used to do to India. So much for their promises of letting Red Hat be the same it always was...

    I've worked with Indian development teams that are amazing, and ones that are horrible.. I hope IBM can "do the needful" and get the amazing teams...

    DaiTengu

    ... I either want less corruption, or more chance to participate in it.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 23:15:00 2020
    On 08-14-20 22:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    There were some differences with the API, and how it works internally,
    but from the POV of a user, its almost exactly the same. You likely
    won't have to do anything different except type "dnf" where you used to type "yum".

    So it's dead simple to switch to Dnf. :D

    A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.

    Stick with what works for you. I don't feel the need to evangelise any particular distro, but if you do want to remain up to date, Fedora is great in that regard.

    Yeah, the primary determinant of what distro I use is the use case. A lot of software is easier to work with under one distro or another. Some particularly tricky to compile (usually because of a myriad of dependencies from multiple non standard sources) may be available precompiled for a particular distro, or dependencies may be easier to satisfy on certsin distros.

    Much amateur software these days tends to favour Debian based systems, and that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.


    ... He knew everything about literature, except how to enjoy it.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Vk3jed on Sun Aug 16 17:28:58 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Vk3jed to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 2020 07:15 pm

    Yeah, the primary determinant of what distro I use is the use case. A lot of software is easier to work with under one distro or another. Some particularly tricky to compile (usually because of a myriad of
    Much amateur software these days tends to favour Debian based systems, and that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.

    Yeah, if there's a package available there's going to be a .deb. The AUR is super nice in Arch though.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Mon Aug 17 12:59:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-14-20 22:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    There were some differences with the API, and how it works internally,
    but from the POV of a user, its almost exactly the same. You likely
    won't have to do anything different except type "dnf" where you used to type "yum".

    So it's dead simple to switch to Dnf. :D

    From yum? Yes. If you know yum, you know dnf.
    A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.

    Stick with what works for you. I don't feel the need to evangelise any particular distro, but if you do want to remain up to date, Fedora is great in that regard.

    Yeah, the primary determinant of what distro I use is the use case. A
    lot of software is easier to work with under one distro or another.
    Some particularly tricky to compile (usually because of a myriad of dependencies from multiple non standard sources) may be available precompiled for a particular distro, or dependencies may be easier to satisfy on certsin distros.

    Much amateur software these days tends to favour Debian based systems,
    and that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There
    was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.

    I tend to find that there are sometimes .deb's where there aren't .rpms. Not often, but it does happen. Typically with software packaged by the software creator. On occasion, I've found a .deb, but no .rpm.

    Not a deal breaker, as its rare, but .deb system have a slight advantage there, and is probably the one factor which pushes me toward Debian.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From paulie420@VERT/BEERS20 to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 17 00:59:00 2020
    Linux is literally my day job. :)
    I'm a sysadmin for a large adtech company. I manage about 2000
    physical server s and a couple hundred virtual ones.
    dealing with Linux all day really has
    killed my desire to ti nker with it in my free time. :)

    Lol, I literally had a buddy who started using Linux at home for all his computing needs because he was a Windows admin in the 90s. :) I hear ya...



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
    |08.........
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Underminer on Mon Aug 17 21:22:00 2020
    On 08-16-20 13:28, Underminer wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.

    Yeah, if there's a package available there's going to be a .deb. The

    Exactly, though even more common now is a complete apt repository, so you just download a .deb or a script that installs the repository, then apt-get install <package>. :)

    AUR is super nice in Arch though. ---

    I was considering Arch at one stage, but never got around to it.



    ... What?! I'm missing Star Tre$#%$^ NO CARRIER
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Mon Aug 17 21:34:00 2020
    On 08-17-20 08:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    From yum? Yes. If you know yum, you know dnf.

    Cool, of course, I could even do:

    ln -s dnf yum

    from the directory dnf resides in.

    I tend to find that there are sometimes .deb's where there aren't
    .rpms. Not often, but it does happen. Typically with software
    packaged by the software creator. On occasion, I've found a .deb, but
    no .rpm.

    I even have software that not only had a .deb, but a complete apt repository, and some that are quite distribution specific - I had to use Debian 9 to successfully install the AllStarLink RoIP system. The .debs would install on other distros like Ubuntu 18.04, but the source for Dahdi (the drivers) wouldn't compile on Ubuntu.

    Not a deal breaker, as its rare, but .deb system have a slight
    advantage there, and is probably the one factor which pushes me toward Debian.

    Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.


    ... Great thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get them.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dennisk on Mon Aug 17 07:22:27 2020
    On 8/14/2020 8:11 AM, Dennisk wrote:

    Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After
    selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner. I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell, streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc, occasionally using my own copy of a
    binary instead of the distro one (I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).

    I did a Gentoo install once about a decade and a half ago for a database server, I literally only wanted the minimum for the database server
    software installed. Man, that was a total pain, but it ran really well.

    For my personal use, I'm inclined to go with PopOS or Linux Mint
    (Cinnamon). I just don't like taking the time tbh, I'd rather just get
    stuff done. On the servers, mostly Ubuntu Server, or use the hosted kubernetes option. I'll use alpine for app base docker container
    versions when possible, usually debian otherwise.

    For the couple things I've played around in with Rust, can use a bare container, which is pretty nifty.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 17 07:26:53 2020
    On 8/14/2020 12:35 PM, DaiTengu wrote:

    It's been some time since I tried to play with Arch, I keep meaning to go back to it, but honestly, dealing with Linux all day really has killed my desire to tinker with it in my free time. :)

    That's effectively me and programming on side/personal projects that I
    want to work on, but really quickly lose motivation.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 18 01:59:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-17-20 08:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    From yum? Yes. If you know yum, you know dnf.

    Cool, of course, I could even do:

    ln -s dnf yum

    from the directory dnf resides in.


    I just found that I stil have yum installed!

    I tend to find that there are sometimes .deb's where there aren't
    .rpms. Not often, but it does happen. Typically with software
    packaged by the software creator. On occasion, I've found a .deb, but
    no .rpm.

    I even have software that not only had a .deb, but a complete apt repository, and some that are quite distribution specific - I had to
    use Debian 9 to successfully install the AllStarLink RoIP system. The .debs would install on other distros like Ubuntu 18.04, but the source
    for Dahdi (the drivers) wouldn't compile on Ubuntu.

    Not a deal breaker, as its rare, but .deb system have a slight
    advantage there, and is probably the one factor which pushes me toward Debian.

    Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has
    definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.

    Perhaps not worth moving on for you then?

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 12:21:00 2020
    On 08-17-20 21:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I just found that I stil have yum installed!

    Haha is it actual yum or a symlink to dnf?

    Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has
    definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.

    Perhaps not worth moving on for you then?

    At this time, no, but if there's something I intend to use heavily that requires Red Hat/Fedora, or at least strongly prefers a RH flavoured distro, then I will seriously consider Fedora over CentOS.


    ... Are the taglines too long, or is the tagline-space to sh
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 19 01:15:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-17-20 21:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I just found that I stil have yum installed!

    Haha is it actual yum or a symlink to dnf?

    It's a symlink to dnf!

    Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has
    definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.

    Perhaps not worth moving on for you then?

    At this time, no, but if there's something I intend to use heavily that requires Red Hat/Fedora, or at least strongly prefers a RH flavoured distro, then I will seriously consider Fedora over CentOS.

    Cool. If any questions, let me know.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 17:32:00 2020
    On 08-18-20 21:15, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Haha is it actual yum or a symlink to dnf?

    It's a symlink to dnf!

    Haha that'll definitely work. :D

    At this time, no, but if there's something I intend to use heavily that requires Red Hat/Fedora, or at least strongly prefers a RH flavoured distro, then I will seriously consider Fedora over CentOS.

    Cool. If any questions, let me know.

    OK, will do. I'm pretty distro agnostic, it depends more on the workload than anything else. :)


    ... Early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 02:02:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.

    Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap
    out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and
    aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into
    a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system
    just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found
    GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).

    Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner.
    I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell,
    streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit
    me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot
    button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc,

    Oh yes. What a thrill doing something like that is. A few months ago I dived head-first into Gentoo and suddenly a whole world of customization was opened to me. I never imagined how these small tweaks would actually be beneficial on the long run but it did. Sadly, the amount of time compiling packages really took a toll on me, haha! And I feel like I'm not yet smart enough to deal with stuff or maybe I'm just lazy to give up a weekend to just learn the stuff.

    Right now I've pretty much integrated my whole setup around using bspwm and terminal applications. It's surprising to me actually how little that I need to have to be able to use my computer productively (or not, haha!). Most of the time I'm just writing stuff and that's done through vim and I either compile it to LaTeX or groff. Other than that, most of the stuff that I have are scripts that I wrote to manage the system's functions like using dmenu as a power menu, display menu, mount menu, etc. I think right now the only thing that I'm missing is the ability to do spreadsheets, and while libreoffice does that I would like to do spreadsheets in the commandline.

    occasionally using my own copy of a binary instead of the distro one
    (I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).

    Oh man. It IS a pain.

    ... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Tue Aug 25 01:55:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.

    Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap
    out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and
    aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into
    a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system
    just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found
    GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).

    Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner.
    I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell,
    streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit
    me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot
    button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc,

    Oh yes. What a thrill doing something like that is. A few months ago I dived head-first into Gentoo and suddenly a whole world of
    customization was opened to me. I never imagined how these small tweaks would actually be beneficial on the long run but it did. Sadly, the
    amount of time compiling packages really took a toll on me, haha! And I feel like I'm not yet smart enough to deal with stuff or maybe I'm just lazy to give up a weekend to just learn the stuff.

    Right now I've pretty much integrated my whole setup around using bspwm and terminal applications. It's surprising to me actually how little
    that I need to have to be able to use my computer productively (or not, haha!). Most of the time I'm just writing stuff and that's done through vim and I either compile it to LaTeX or groff. Other than that, most of the stuff that I have are scripts that I wrote to manage the system's functions like using dmenu as a power menu, display menu, mount menu,
    etc. I think right now the only thing that I'm missing is the ability
    to do spreadsheets, and while libreoffice does that I would like to do spreadsheets in the commandline.

    occasionally using my own copy of a binary instead of the distro one
    (I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).

    Oh man. It IS a pain.

    I like groff/nroff. I have some reports that I generate, and instead of using Office productivity programs, I write a program in D to parse some CSV files, and some text explanations I put in two text files, and insert the results of the CSV files as tables into a groff template. (Its a financial report). All I then have to do, is fill in a couple of CSV files, download two more, type text comments in two files, and run a script, and I have a formatted PDF report.

    Another one I do, I did in Open Office, but I found it fidgety (and awkward). So again, a simple CSV file or two, gnuplot and groff, and the report is generated, a PDF with a report and graphs and tables. Sure, it took longer to set up, but once done, I generate the reports in no time. Consistently and fast. In the long run, I save time. If there is some other function I need, I can quickly write it up in the programming language of my choice (or use the unix tools).

    FVWM makes things even easiser, as that Window Manager has its own scripting language and ability to create forms, so I can generate these with a keypress from my Window Manager, bringing up a form, where I can fill a few details to enter.

    ... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com