• Working from home

    From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to All on Fri Oct 5 18:54:09 2018
    So - what's your view on working from home?


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  • From Roman Litvinenko@21:1/123 to Joacim Melin on Fri Oct 5 13:42:46 2018
    Hello Joacim!

    Friday October 05 2018 14:54, you wrote to All:

    So - what's your view on working from home?
    For me it is always very hard to concentrate while working from home.
    I guess it is a lack of personal discipline but whatever...

    Roman

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  • From Deon George@21:2/116.1 to Joacim Melin on Fri Oct 5 18:05:28 2018
    On 10/05/18, Joacim Melin said the following...
    So - what's your view on working from home?

    For me, I've worked "from home" for the best part of 10 years - and it's
    great.

    I have young kids 4 and 6, and it has enabled me to be involved with them
    more. IE: No commute time into the city (which easily destroys and hour each way), and with my oldest at primary school now - I ride with him to school
    and pick him up each day.

    My primary benefit is 2hrs more each day.

    While my 4 year old is often around during the days - she's too busy with
    play dates or socialising to bug me :)

    ...deon

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  • From Tiny@21:1/130.4 to Joacim Melin on Sat Oct 6 01:16:40 2018
    Quoting Joacim Melin to All <=-

    So - what's your view on working from home?

    I'd starve to death.

    Shawn

    ... A feature is a bug with seniority.
    --- Blue Wave/386
    * Origin: A Tiny slice o pi (21:1/130.4)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Joacim Melin on Sat Oct 6 13:53:00 2018
    On 10-05-18 14:54, Joacim Melin wrote to All <=-

    So - what's your view on working from home?

    I've done it. It can work very well. In the big cities, working from home can save hours in commuting, which means more time to do things you want to do. It depends on your workplace, your job and your self discipline and personal circumstances as to whether it works. One potential downside is you can miss out on the social side of the workplace. My latter days of working from home were the ultimate in the distributed workplace. There were 4 of us doing the bulk of the company work, spread across 3 sites (none of which were used for operations) in 2 countries (Australia and New Zealand). And it worked pretty well.


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  • From Nigel Reed@21:2/101 to Joacim Melin on Sat Oct 6 05:01:48 2018
    Joacim wrote:
    So - what's your view on working from home?

    I have been doing it for several years. Generally it's fine, but you need to keep a routine. Get up, shower, have breakfast, go to work, etc. If you
    don't then you'll end up spending days without getting showered or going out anywhere. :)

    The social aspect is difficult too. You'll talk to people on the phone but
    the only daily human interaction you'll get is with those around you and
    that can get very old after a few years. Find and maintain some outside activity that gets you away from the house and other people once a week or
    so, otherwise you're going to go stir crazy.
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  • From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to Nigel Reed on Sat Oct 6 13:28:55 2018
    Joacim wrote:
    So - what's your view on working from home?

    I have been doing it for several years. Generally it's fine, but you
    need to
    keep a routine. Get up, shower, have breakfast, go to work, etc. If
    you
    don't then you'll end up spending days without getting showered or
    going out
    anywhere. :)

    The social aspect is difficult too. You'll talk to people on the
    phone but
    the only daily human interaction you'll get is with those around you
    and
    that can get very old after a few years. Find and maintain some
    outside
    activity that gets you away from the house and other people once a
    week or
    so, otherwise you're going to go stir crazy.

    I find virtually every observation you just pointed out to be 100 percent true.
    I used to run my own business and for three years I would work from home every
    day. I enjoyed the freedom but man, I was socially starved after just a few weeks and now adays I work at home maybe 1-2 days per month but not more than that. Part of me wish I was OK to work home more but at the same time I'm glad I'm not, if that makes any sense.


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Nigel Reed on Sun Oct 7 12:52:00 2018
    On 10-06-18 01:01, Nigel Reed wrote to Joacim Melin <=-

    @TZ: 412c
    Joacim wrote:
    So - what's your view on working from home?

    I have been doing it for several years. Generally it's fine, but you
    need to keep a routine. Get up, shower, have breakfast, go to work,
    etc. If you don't then you'll end up spending days without getting showered or going out anywhere. :)

    The social aspect is difficult too. You'll talk to people on the phone
    but the only daily human interaction you'll get is with those around
    you and that can get very old after a few years. Find and maintain some outside activity that gets you away from the house and other people
    once a week or so, otherwise you're going to go stir crazy.

    Great advice. I found the same as well, having a disciplined routine and outside social contact are vital for successful working from home. But iron out those kinks, and working from home can be very rewarding and productive. Outings like Linux users groups, radio clubs, running groups and orienteering/rogaining really helped with the social side for me during those years. :)


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Joacim Melin on Sun Oct 7 12:54:00 2018
    On 10-06-18 09:28, Joacim Melin wrote to Nigel Reed <=-
    I find virtually every observation you just pointed out to be 100
    percent true.
    I used to run my own business and for three years I would work from
    home every
    day. I enjoyed the freedom but man, I was socially starved after just
    a few weeks and now adays I work at home maybe 1-2 days per month but
    not more than that. Part of me wish I was OK to work home more but at
    the same time I'm glad I'm not, if that makes any sense.

    Yes, there is something about going to the workplace and maintaining the social connections with your coworkers that can't be replicated any other way. One does have to substitute when working from home.


    ... Better one true friend than a hundred relatives.
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  • From Nigel Reed@21:2/101 to Joacim Melin on Sun Oct 7 07:50:36 2018
    Joacim wrote:

    I find virtually every observation you just pointed out to be 100 percent
    true.
    I used to run my own business and for three years I would work from home
    every
    day. I enjoyed the freedom but man, I was socially starved after just a few weeks and now adays I work at home maybe 1-2 days per month but not more
    than
    that. Part of me wish I was OK to work home more but at the same time I'm
    glad
    I'm not, if that makes any sense.

    Yup, I understand. It's nice to go into the office occasionally, however
    those days are few and far between. That said, the amount I save in tolls
    and gas and wear on my car is worth it. I barely go anywhere so I fill up
    like twice a month. Plus the 40 minute commute each way gives me more time
    to do my own stuff.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)
  • From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to Nigel Reed on Sun Oct 7 16:21:53 2018
    Joacim wrote:

    I find virtually every observation you just pointed out to be 100 percent
    true.
    I used to run my own business and for three years I would work from home
    every
    day. I enjoyed the freedom but man, I was socially starved after just a fe
    w
    weeks and now adays I work at home maybe 1-2 days per month but not more
    than
    that. Part of me wish I was OK to work home more but at the same time I'm
    glad
    I'm not, if that makes any sense.

    Yup, I understand. It's nice to go into the office occasionally,
    however
    those days are few and far between. That said, the amount I save in
    tolls
    and gas and wear on my car is worth it. I barely go anywhere so I
    fill up
    like twice a month. Plus the 40 minute commute each way gives me more
    time
    to do my own stuff.

    When I returned to a regular jobby-job I commuted for 2,5-3 hours per day, five
    days a week. But I Got fed up with that and got another job almost a year ago
    which takes 45-50 minutes per day in my commute. I did some back-of-the-napkin
    math and figured out that I save about 40 hours per month not commuting to the
    fancy jobs in the city and instead work a on-paper less glamorous job in the IT sector in a suburb. I still make the same money and I'm way happier and less
    stressed out.


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  • From Carol Shenkenberger@21:1/104 to Roman Litvinenko on Sun Oct 7 14:48:30 2018
    Re: Working from home
    By: Roman Litvinenko to Joacim Melin on Fri Oct 05 2018 09:42 am

    So - what's your view on working from home?
    For me it is always very hard to concentrate while working from home.
    I guess it is a lack of personal discipline but whatever...

    Roman

    Varies with the situation. I prefer a flexible schedule where I can work from home some of the time on the big projects. I'm actually setup better at home since in addition to the govermment laptop (full access to everything over secure VPN), I can do other aspects on any of my 3 home machines. Like have a PPT on one that I'm working with, an excel file to another and then do what is needed to be on the GOVT laptop, there. (the rest on the home machines BTW is not PII/FOUO or anything like that. It only beomes so after I put labels and comment boxes which happens on the GOVT laptop only).

    xxcarol



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  • From Carol Shenkenberger@21:1/104 to Vk3jed on Sun Oct 7 15:24:41 2018
    Re: Re: Working from home
    By: Vk3jed to Joacim Melin on Sat Oct 06 2018 09:53 am

    So - what's your view on working from home?

    I've done it. It can work very well. In the big cities, working from home can save hours in commuting, which means more time to do things you want to do. It depends on your workplace, your job and your self discipline and personal circumstances as to whether it works. One potential downside is you can miss out on the social side of the workplace. My latter days of working from home were the ultimate in the distributed workplace. There were 4 of us doing the bulk of the company work, spread across 3 sites (none of which were used for operations) in 2 countries (Australia and New Zealand). And it worked pretty well.

    Exactly. My last job for about 9 years had me in Norfolk VA, with most in Pensacola FA, one in San Diego CA and a bunch up in New Hampshire. It works very well but there are jobs that require the office interfaace. I'd be in the office in Norfolk while working issues for ships at sea, people in Japan or Bahrain. They needed me at work to reach out by DSN (Military phone network) but from the perspective of my co-workers, it seemed I was a teleworker ;-)

    Came to a new job (no longer contractor) and while they liked that I knew how to do a distributed work environment, they don't really 'get it' and are missing out on the very differences in how you interact to solve them. They are used to 'face to face' and do not understand the concepts of other operations.
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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Oct 8 16:43:00 2018
    On 10-07-18 11:24, Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Came to a new job (no longer contractor) and while they liked that I
    knew how to do a distributed work environment, they don't really 'get
    it' and are missing out on the very differences in how you interact to solve them. They are used to 'face to face' and do not understand the concepts of other operations.

    It is a different way of working. Sometimes, knowing what medium to use (email, instant message/chat - e.g. Slack, phone, video conference/desktop sharing) to use for each situation is important. I would often be using email and phone at the same time - the phone for rapid discussion, with email to convey details that would be slower and more error prone over the phone, for example.


    ... And if one bad cluster should accidentally fail...
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  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Carol Shenkenberger on Tue Oct 9 00:32:31 2018
    Hi Carol

    I can see you tried to send me routed netmail via 1/100 but in this case
    Mystic would not handle the packet.

    The logs show

    [snip]

    ! Oct 08 20:08:21 8C71E93D.PKT does not match an AKA (21:1/101)
    ! Oct 08 20:08:21 537D2F99.PKT does not match an AKA (21:2/116)

    [snip]

    both attempts are not working. Not sure why.

    I tried a packet viewing tool for the first packet and see

    [snip]

    PKTView - Fidonet *.PKT viewer - last update 1998-08-21
    Written by Tom Torfs, free for all use

    8C71E93D.pkt:
    Detected Type 2 packet
    --- PACKET HEADER ---
    Packet version : 2
    Capability word : 0000
    Capability validation : 0000
    Product code : 0.0
    Product revision : 0.0
    Product specific info : 00000000
    Date and time : 2018-10-07 10:16:41
    Originating zone : (21)
    Originating net : 1
    Originating node : 104
    Originating point : (n/a)
    Destination zone : (21)
    Destination net : 1
    Destination node : 101
    Destination point : (n/a)
    Auxiliary net : 0
    Baudrate : 0
    Password :
    --- PACKED MESSAGE #1 ---
    Version : 2
    Originating net : 1
    Originating node : 104
    Destination net : 1
    Destination node : 101
    Cost : 0
    Attributes : Pvt K/S Loc
    Date and time : 07 Oct 18 10:14:56
    From : Carol Shenkenberger
    To : Avon
    Subject : Re: Point Netmail
    Control information:
    ^AINTL 21:1/101 21:1/104
    ^AVia 21:1/104 @20181007.141641.UTC SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
  • From Nigel Reed@21:2/101 to Tiny on Mon Oct 8 06:38:39 2018
    Tiny wrote:
    Quoting Joacim Melin to All <=-

    So - what's your view on working from home?

    I'd starve to death.

    That's what wives are for.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)
  • From Nigel Reed@21:2/101 to Vk3jed on Mon Oct 8 06:40:29 2018
    Vk3jed wrote:

    Great advice. I found the same as well, having a disciplined routine and outside social contact are vital for successful working from home. But
    iron
    out those kinks, and working from home can be very rewarding and
    productive.
    Outings like Linux users groups, radio clubs, running groups and orienteering/rogaining really helped with the social side for me during
    those
    years. :)

    Another option is to go to a coffee shop and work. Pack up the laptop and a cell phone and go sit in an internet cafe (do they have those any more?) or
    at least a place with coffee or a favorite beverage. You can spend the day there, have your breakfast, and lunch, drinks and whatever. Sure, it'll probably cost the same as a commute would, but it gets you out the house and maybe once a month isn't going to hurt much.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Nigel Reed on Tue Oct 9 00:24:00 2018
    On 10-08-18 02:40, Nigel Reed wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Another option is to go to a coffee shop and work. Pack up the laptop
    and a cell phone and go sit in an internet cafe (do they have those any more?) or at least a place with coffee or a favorite beverage. You can spend the day there, have your breakfast, and lunch, drinks and
    whatever. Sure, it'll probably cost the same as a commute would, but it gets you out the house and maybe once a month isn't going to hurt much.

    Yeah that one probably wouldn't work for me. Downgrading my operational capability to be in a noisy environment.


    ... When your work speaks for itself, don't interrupt
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  • From Carol Shenkenberger@21:1/104 to Vk3jed on Mon Oct 8 22:19:38 2018
    Re: Re: Working from home
    By: Vk3jed to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Oct 08 2018 12:43 pm

    Came to a new job (no longer contractor) and while they liked that I
    knew how to do a distributed work environment, they don't really
    'get it' and are missing out on the very differences in how you
    interact to solve them. They are used to 'face to face' and do not
    understand the concepts of other operations.

    It is a different way of working. Sometimes, knowing what medium to use (email, instant message/chat - e.g. Slack, phone, video conference/desktop sharing) to use for each situation is important. I would often be using email and phone at the same time - the phone for rapid discussion, with email to convey details that would be slower and more error prone over the phone, for example.

    Yes or a Point-to-point screenshare with voice.

    xxcarol
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    * Origin: Shenk's Express, shenks.synchro.net (21:1/104)
  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to vk3jed on Mon Oct 8 22:20:47 2018
    personal circumstances as to whether it works. One potential downside is you can miss out on the social side of the workplace. My latter days of

    Honestly, after a day of "the social side of the workplace, supermarket
    after work, etc.," I am beat. OTOH, the times I have been able to work
    from home I feel a lot more energetic and productive... sometimes I even
    forget to quit at quittin' time!

    They only let us work from home now if it is an emergency or we are on
    call. Too many folks abused the system and were not really working at all
    on their WFH days. Punishing the whole rather than firing the few is apparently the way to go.



    ... DalekDOS v(overflow): (I)Obey (V)ision impaired (E)xterminate
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  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to Nigel Reed on Mon Oct 8 22:22:48 2018
    Another option is to go to a coffee shop and work. Pack up the laptop
    and a cell phone and go sit in an internet cafe (do they have those any more?) or at least a place with coffee or a favorite beverage. You can spend the day there, have your breakfast, and lunch, drinks and
    whatever. Sure, it'll probably cost the same as a commute would, but it gets you out the house and maybe once a month isn't going to hurt much.

    Here we have Panera and Starbucks where you could do that. Heck, I have
    seen people working out of the local McDonalds in the next town over...
    even conducting interviews there!

    I think that is the closest to an internet cafe here. :)


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Carol Shenkenberger on Wed Oct 10 15:00:00 2018
    On 10-08-18 18:19, Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    It is a different way of working. Sometimes, knowing what medium to use (email, instant message/chat - e.g. Slack, phone, video conference/desktop sharing) to use for each situation is important. I would often be using email and phone at the same time - the phone for rapid discussion, with email to convey details that would be slower and more error prone over the phone, for example.

    Yes or a Point-to-point screenshare with voice.

    Yep, that's an option too for some situations, works well when it's the appropriate one.


    ... A seed hidden in the heart of an apple is an orchard invisible.
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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Blue White on Wed Oct 10 15:05:00 2018
    On 10-08-18 18:20, Blue White wrote to vk3jed <=-

    personal circumstances as to whether it works. One potential downside is you can miss out on the social side of the workplace. My latter days of

    Honestly, after a day of "the social side of the workplace, supermarket after work, etc.," I am beat. OTOH, the times I have been able to work from home I feel a lot more energetic and productive... sometimes I
    even forget to quit at quittin' time!

    Yes, there's the individual aspect too. Some people are more productive at home, others are more productive in the office. I'm about the same in either environment, though the lack of commuting was a huge bonus when working from home. I was also able to work from wherever I happened to be, provided I had Internet. There were a couple of emergencies that I had to deal with while on a beach. :)

    They only let us work from home now if it is an emergency or we are on call. Too many folks abused the system and were not really working at
    all on their WFH days. Punishing the whole rather than firing the few
    is apparently the way to go.

    That sucks. :( My own preference for office based work is a fairly even mix of in office and working from home.

    Today, it's all academic. My work requires hands on - it's hard to dig holes or pull weeds over the Internet (without a lot of capital investment in robotics! :D ).


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  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to Vk3jed on Wed Oct 10 20:49:35 2018
    Today, it's all academic. My work requires hands on - it's hard to dig holes or pull weeds over the Internet (without a lot of capital
    investment in robotics! :D ).

    LOL, and probably for some insurance for when the robots go rogue and do
    some real damage. :)



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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Blue White on Thu Oct 11 18:15:00 2018
    On 10-10-18 16:49, Blue White wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Today, it's all academic. My work requires hands on - it's hard to dig holes or pull weeds over the Internet (without a lot of capital
    investment in robotics! :D ).

    LOL, and probably for some insurance for when the robots go rogue and
    do some real damage. :)

    LOL yep. :D


    ... Weeds! No, that is my vineyard! Ever heard of dandelion wine?
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  • From Carol Shenkenberger@21:1/104 to Vk3jed on Sun Oct 14 00:19:46 2018
    Re: Re: Working from home
    By: Vk3jed to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Oct 08 2018 12:43 pm

    Came to a new job (no longer contractor) and while they liked that I
    knew how to do a distributed work environment, they don't really
    'get it' and are missing out on the very differences in how you
    interact to solve them. They are used to 'face to face' and do not
    understand the concepts of other operations.

    It is a different way of working. Sometimes, knowing what medium to use (email, instant message/chat - e.g. Slack, phone, video conference/desktop sharing) to use for each situation is important. I would often be using email and phone at the same time - the phone for rapid discussion, with email to convey details that would be slower and more error prone over the phone, for example.

    Exactly. It's funny but the younger guys are the ones struggling with that concept. The older ones are used to it and use it natively.

    Thats my workplace at least. Flip flop of what you'd expect.
    Carol
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    * Origin: Shenk's Express, shenks.synchro.net (21:1/104)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@21:1/104 to Avon on Sun Oct 14 00:33:22 2018
    Re: Re: Netmail
    By: Avon to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Oct 08 2018 08:32 pm

    Hi Carol

    I can see you tried to send me routed netmail via 1/100 but in this case Mystic would not handle the packet.

    The logs show

    [snip]

    ! Oct 08 20:08:21 8C71E93D.PKT does not match an AKA (21:1/101)
    ! Oct 08 20:08:21 537D2F99.PKT does not match an AKA (21:2/116)

    Humm. Might I have made a typo of 101 vs 100?

    Meantime, I shifted some more Mystic netmail (Phil Taylor) that all was 'routed' to me but with the crash bit set.

    Well, testing on...
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Shenk's Express, shenks.synchro.net (21:1/104)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@21:1/104 to Nigel Reed on Sun Oct 14 00:34:36 2018
    Re: Re: Working from home
    By: Nigel Reed to Tiny on Mon Oct 08 2018 02:38 am

    Tiny wrote:
    Quoting Joacim Melin to All <=-

    So - what's your view on working from home?

    I'd starve to death.

    That's what wives are for.

    Actualy husbands are for that. Get with the program.

    Carol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Shenk's Express, shenks.synchro.net (21:1/104)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Oct 14 17:52:00 2018
    On 10-13-18 20:19, Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Exactly. It's funny but the younger guys are the ones struggling with that concept. The older ones are used to it and use it natively.

    I think it depends on _which_ older people. People around my age (50) who were early adopters of technology have had the advantage of starting out without it, and adapting to the changes over time. That probably makes us versatile, when it comes to things like working away from home.


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Oct 14 18:24:00 2018
    On 10-13-18 20:34, Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Nigel Reed <=-

    Actualy husbands are for that. Get with the program.

    The question for me is _which_ husband? :D


    ... An instantaneous power-supply crowbar circuit will operate too late.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Oct 14 23:27:41 2018
    On 10/13/18, Carol Shenkenberger pondered and said...

    The logs show

    [snip]

    ! Oct 08 20:08:21 8C71E93D.PKT does not match an AKA (21:1/101)
    ! Oct 08 20:08:21 537D2F99.PKT does not match an AKA (21:2/116)

    Humm. Might I have made a typo of 101 vs 100?

    I don't know but I suspect not, the netmail to 101 should be sent via 100 and route to it just fine, and does for others who send me netmail vai the 100
    HUB. Hmm

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@21:1/104 to Vk3jed on Sun Oct 14 23:25:48 2018
    Re: Re: Working from home
    By: Vk3jed to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Oct 14 2018 01:52 pm

    Exactly. It's funny but the younger guys are the ones struggling
    with that concept. The older ones are used to it and use it
    natively.


    I think it depends on _which_ older people. People around my age (50) who were early adopters of technology have had the advantage of starting out without it, and adapting to the changes over time. That probably makes us versatile, when it comes to things like working away from home.

    Could well be! Folks like to say 'dont hire older employees as they don't adapt well'. Fact is in my experience, it's the younger ones who seem to have a set 'this is how it has to be done' attitude. Odd that.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Shenk's Express, shenks.synchro.net (21:1/104)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@21:1/104 to Vk3jed on Sun Oct 14 23:27:02 2018
    Re: Re: Working from home
    By: Vk3jed to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Oct 14 2018 02:24 pm

    Actualy husbands are for that. Get with the program.

    The question for me is _which_ husband? :D

    .. looks over shoulder and picks one... This one do?

    (evil grin)
    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Shenk's Express, shenks.synchro.net (21:1/104)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@21:1/104 to Avon on Sun Oct 14 23:33:48 2018
    Re: Re: Netmail
    By: Avon to Carol Shenkenberger on Sun Oct 14 2018 07:27 pm

    [snip]

    ! Oct 08 20:08:21 8C71E93D.PKT does not match an AKA (21:1/101)
    ! Oct 08 20:08:21 537D2F99.PKT does not match an AKA (21:2/116)

    Humm. Might I have made a typo of 101 vs 100?

    I don't know but I suspect not, the netmail to 101 should be sent via 100 and route to it just fine, and does for others who send me netmail vai the 100 HUB. Hmm

    We'll have to make some more tests then ut it's late Sunday with work early tomorrow.

    I can tell you Rob Swindell had an alert on a SBBSECHO update. It potentially is related but the main problem I get is Mystic sites with the crash bit set then 'routing' it via me.

    xxcarol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Shenk's Express, shenks.synchro.net (21:1/104)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Oct 15 16:22:00 2018
    On 10-14-18 19:25, Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I think it depends on _which_ older people. People around my age (50) who were early adopters of technology have had the advantage of starting out without it, and adapting to the changes over time. That probably makes us versatile, when it comes to things like working away from home.

    Could well be! Folks like to say 'dont hire older employees as they
    don't adapt well'. Fact is in my experience, it's the younger ones who seem to have a set 'this is how it has to be done' attitude. Odd that.

    Yes, a lot of older people are quite adaptible. Probably because we have had to adapt to a LOT of change over the years. In some ways, the changes we've experienced are greater in some fundamental ways than the younger generations have had to face. Strip them of the tech they've grown up with and let's see how well they cope. As for us older people, we remember how things were done before technology, and can fall back on that. :)

    We also know that the only certain thing (besides death and taxes) is change.
    )


    ... Click...click...click...Damn, out of taglines again!
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Oct 15 16:23:00 2018
    On 10-14-18 19:27, Carol Shenkenberger wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Actualy husbands are for that. Get with the program.

    The question for me is _which_ husband? :D

    .. looks over shoulder and picks one... This one do?

    Haha I was referring to my domestic situation. :D


    ... I do not think it means what you think it means.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Oct 15 23:42:18 2018
    On 10/14/18, Carol Shenkenberger pondered and said...

    We'll have to make some more tests then ut it's late Sunday with work early tomorrow.

    I can tell you Rob Swindell had an alert on a SBBSECHO update. It potentially is related but the main problem I get is Mystic sites with
    the crash bit set then 'routing' it via me.

    OK :) Lets just keep playing as when we can :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A39 2018/04/21 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Carol Shenkenberger@21:1/104 to Avon on Sat Oct 20 12:44:31 2018
    Re: Re: Netmail
    By: Avon to Carol Shenkenberger on Mon Oct 15 2018 07:42 pm

    We'll have to make some more tests then ut it's late Sunday with
    work early tomorrow.

    I can tell you Rob Swindell had an alert on a SBBSECHO update. It
    potentially is related but the main problem I get is Mystic sites
    with the crash bit set then 'routing' it via me.

    OK :) Lets just keep playing as when we can :)

    Yes. I need to check some things for Phil Taylor and Greg Youngblood that came in (not Z21 netmail related) then will look over this. Been off the BBS the past week due to work. I handle US Navy accession training for SPECWAR/SPECOPS/Seabees and MA (primary or backup depending which one). My Dive and EOD guys train in Panama City. Working the messages for the CO/Director of Training via cell phones and home email addresses.

    See the conversation with Wicked on younger kids not being adaptable? The younger cohort of mine is a GREAT guy and frankly doing the harder part but it didnt occur to him to take a voice report naval message, render it unclassified and confirm text via commercial accounts then release from NETC for EODDIVE. Sending them the feedbacks via same path and using *.GIF format as one of them can only open that. ASCII text as well when it's pure text. Had to diddle with encryption settings but its all good. Kinda put other things to the side for a bit ;-)
    Carol
    --- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
    * Origin: Shenk's Express, shenks.synchro.net (21:1/104)
  • From Joe@21:1/189 to All on Tue Oct 22 21:59:14 2019
    Can someone on fido send a netmail to joe@1:220/70. I'm not sure my hub is routing things correctly.

    Thanks

    Joe

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: The Virtual Terminal (21:1/189)
  • From Al@21:4/106 to Joe on Tue Oct 22 20:19:48 2019
    Can someone on fido send a netmail to joe@1:220/70. I'm not sure my hub is routing things correctly.

    Just sent one off.. I hope you get it.

    Ttyl :-)
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.13alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)
  • From Al@21:4/106 to Joe on Tue Oct 22 20:46:44 2019
    Can someone on fido send a netmail to joe@1:220/70. I'm not sure my hub is routing things correctly.

    I did send you one a few minutes ago but I am not certain of the best
    path to your net.

    If you don't get it there are other targets I could send it to.

    If you like you can send a netmail my way. I have links with 229/426,
    261/38 and 3634/12. Any of those should work however you get it there.

    Let me of of success or failure please.. :)

    Ttyl :-)
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.13alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)
  • From Static@21:2/140 to Joe on Wed Oct 23 02:17:57 2019
    On 22 Oct 2019, Joe said the following...

    Can someone on fido send a netmail to joe@1:220/70. I'm not sure my hub is routing things correctly.

    Sent you a test from 1:249/400.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Subcarrier BBS (21:2/140)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Joe on Thu Oct 24 00:39:00 2019
    On 10-22-19 17:59, Joe wrote to All <=-

    Can someone on fido send a netmail to joe@1:220/70. I'm not sure my
    hub is routing things correctly.


    Fido netmail sent to the above address. Let me know if you get it.


    ... "I'll write a GUI using VB6 to to track the killer's IP." -- CSI: NY
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Joe@21:1/189 to ALL on Wed Oct 23 09:58:30 2019
    Can someone on fido send a netmail to joe@1:220/70. I'm not sure my hub is routing things correctly.

    Thanks to everyone who sent the netmails, Unfortunatly none of them made it here. I get netmails from FSXNet, and from areafix/filefix from the hub, but nothing else seems to make it here. Dont know if RJ's System is jacked up or further up stream.

    Joe

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: The Virtual Terminal (21:1/189)
  • From Al@21:4/106 to Joe on Wed Oct 23 08:26:10 2019
    Thanks to everyone who sent the netmails, Unfortunatly none of them made it here. I get netmails from FSXNet, and from areafix/filefix from the hub, but nothing else seems to make it here. Dont know if RJ's System is jacked up or further up stream.

    Yep, fsxNet takes care with details like routeing.

    Fidonet does too but it's bigger and more points of failure are possible
    and it's hard to know just where it failed. I would ask RJ to check that netmail for your node will in fact get to your node.

    Ttyl :-)
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.13alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)
  • From Tiny@21:1/130 to Joe on Wed Oct 23 13:21:00 2019

    Hello Joe!

    23 Oct 19 05:58, you wrote to all:

    Thanks to everyone who sent the netmails, Unfortunatly none of them
    made it here. I get netmails from FSXNet, and from areafix/filefix
    from the hub, but nothing else seems to make it here. Dont know if
    RJ's System is jacked up or further up stream.

    I've seen it take 3-4 days for a routed netmail to get to me. Fidonet
    isn't fast so keep that in mind as well.

    Shawn


    ... We never know whether we are victors or whether we are defeated.
    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20160201
    * Origin: Tiny's BBS - tinysbbs.com (21:1/130)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Joe on Fri Oct 25 00:07:00 2019
    On 10-23-19 05:58, Joe wrote to ALL <=-

    Can someone on fido send a netmail to joe@1:220/70. I'm not sure my hub is routing things correctly.

    Thanks to everyone who sent the netmails, Unfortunatly none of them
    made it here. I get netmails from FSXNet, and from areafix/filefix
    from the hub, but nothing else seems to make it here. Dont know if
    RJ's System is jacked up or further up stream.

    Mine made it to Z1 according to Vorlon (he's my upstream for Fido). No idea where things went pear shaped.


    ... Potted meat: all the other stuff too vile for hot dogs.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Al@21:4/106 to Avon on Sat Dec 7 19:54:52 2019
    Hello Avon,

    I just sent you a netmail so I'm hoping all is good between 1/100 and 4/100 as far a netmail (thinking encryption password) goes and you will get it OK.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Al on Wed Dec 11 02:30:15 2019
    On 07 Dec 2019 at 02:54p, Al pondered and said...

    I just sent you a netmail so I'm hoping all is good between 1/100 and 4/100 as far a netmail (thinking encryption password) goes and you will get it OK.

    Yep all sorted Al - thank you :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Al on Mon Dec 16 12:09:28 2019
    Al, just playing with HPT and trying to get netmail processing working. Did a test on a routed netmail from 5/100 to 1/101 and can see

    [snip]

    ----------------------- Mon 16 Dec 19, hpt/w32-mvcdll 1.9.0-cur 2019-12-05
    1 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 Start
    1 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 Start tossing...
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 ../src/\toss.c::processDir() begin
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 ../src/\toss.c::processDir() returns 0
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 ../src/\toss.c::processDir() begin
    O Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 Look incoming file
    c:\huskyfsx\echomail\in\40ED5D20.PKT
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 toss.c::processPkt()
    O Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 toss.c:processPkt(): opened 'c:\huskyfsx\echomail\in\40ED5D20.tos' ("rb" mode)
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 toss.c::processMsg()
    L Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 Netmail from 21:5/100 to 21:1/101.0
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 dupe.c::dupeDetection() begin
    L Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 Wrote Netmail: 21:5/100.0 -> 21:1/101.0
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 toss.c::processMsg() rc=1
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 toss.c::processPkt() OK
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 ../src/\toss.c::processDir() returns 1
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 ../src/\toss.c::processDir() begin
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 ../src/\toss.c::processDir() returns 0
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 ../src/\toss.c::processDir() begin
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 ../src/\toss.c::processDir() returns 0
    4 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 Statistics:
    4 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 arc: 0 netMail: 1 echoMail: 0
    CC: 0
    4 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 pkt's: 0 dupe: 0 passthru: 0 exported: 0
    4 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 msgs: 1 bad: 0 saved: 0 empty: 0
    4 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 Input: 1000.00 mails/sec Output: 0.00 mails/sec
    4 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 331.05 kb/sec
    4 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 0.33 kb total, processed in 0.001 seconds
    4 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 Areas summary:
    4 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 netmail area NETMAIL - 1 msgs
    1 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 End tossing
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 ../src/\query.c:1189:af_CloseQuery() begin
    U Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 ../src/\query.c:1192:af_CloseQuery() end
    1 Dec:16:2019:06:54:48 End

    [snip]

    so it's lands at 1/100 OK and then I need to run pack - correct? for it to export out... so I do this

    [snip]

    ----------------------- Mon 16 Dec 19, hpt/w32-mvcdll 1.9.0-cur 2019-12-05
    1 Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 Start
    U Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 scanExport() begin
    1 Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 Start packing...
    1 Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 EchoTossLogFile not found -> Scanning all areas
    1 Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 Scanning NetmailArea NETMAIL
    U Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 packMsg() begin
    7 Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 Msg packed with flavour 'immediate': 21:5/100 -> 21:1/101
    U Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 packMsg() rc=0
    L Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 Msg #623 from 21:5/100 to 21:1/101 deleted
    D Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 Statistics
    D Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 areas: 1 msgs: 1
    D Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 exported: 1
    E Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 Areas summary:
    E Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 netmail area NETMAIL - 1 msgs
    U Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 scanExport() end
    U Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 ../src/\query.c:1189:af_CloseQuery() begin
    U Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 ../src/\query.c:1192:af_CloseQuery() end
    1 Dec:16:2019:06:55:38 End


    [snip]

    and in my echomail out I see a file with a .IUT extension.... is that going
    to send when I fire up BinkD? or should HPT be packing it with an Arcmail attachment or ???

    It's probably a config thing at my end.

    Also does HPT use the netmail base as a temp scratch pad? Looks like the
    nemail was imported then deleted...as it was routed onwards to 1/101 ??


    Best, Paul

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Al@21:4/106 to Avon on Sun Dec 15 15:42:30 2019
    Hello Avon,

    so it's lands at 1/100 OK and then I need to run pack - correct? for
    it to export out... so I do this

    I believe so yes, your setup is much more involved that mine.

    and in my echomail out I see a file with a .IUT extension.... is that going to send when I fire up BinkD? or should HPT be packing it with
    an Arcmail attachment or ???

    Yes, binkd will send that. That is immediate flavour. There is also a .ilo flow
    file for arcmail and/or files for a node with immediate flavour.

    It's probably a config thing at my end.

    I have not used immediate myself. I use crash and hold. That is interesting. I wonder if binkd will prioritize those outbounds. It may allow you to send stuff
    to the hubs immediately which would be a good thing but I don't know if that is so.

    Also does HPT use the netmail base as a temp scratch pad? Looks like
    the nemail was imported then deleted...as it was routed onwards to
    1/101 ??

    Yes, I believe so although for the most part it will be unseen. Once you run a pack it will be gone (if it has somewhere to go).

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)
  • From Al@21:4/106 to Avon on Sun Dec 15 15:56:18 2019
    Hello Avon,

    and in my echomail out I see a file with a .IUT extension.... is that going to send when I fire up BinkD? or should HPT be packing it with
    an Arcmail attachment or ???

    I forgot to mention, there is the keyword "ArcNetmail" that you can use in a link section if you want netmail to be packed in an arcmail bundle along with echomail for a node. Normally netmail is not packed into arcmail bundles, it is
    saved as raw netmail in .HUT, .DUT, .OUT, .CUT, or .IUT files in the outbound.
    They will be sent as .PKT files and given a random filename.

    I have only rarely used it, but it is there.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Al on Mon Dec 16 13:23:20 2019
    On 15 Dec 2019 at 10:56a, Al pondered and said...

    I forgot to mention, there is the keyword "ArcNetmail" that you can use
    in a link section if you want netmail to be packed in an arcmail bundle along with echomail for a node. Normally netmail is not packed into arcmail bundles, it is saved as raw netmail in .HUT, .DUT, .OUT, .CUT,
    or .IUT files in the outbound. They will be sent as .PKT files and given
    a random filename.

    Thanks for this info Al. Yes I think Mystic currently packs netmail into the ARC so seeing these in HPT is new for me. I will likely bundle it all in the ARC attaches..

    More playing to be done tonight :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Avon on Sun Dec 29 17:22:00 2019
    Interesting its still sitting here... I'll give it a prod..

    Spec


    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: (21:3/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Spectre on Sun Dec 29 20:33:10 2019
    On 29 Dec 2019 at 12:22p, Spectre pondered and said...

    Interesting its still sitting here... I'll give it a prod..

    Spec

    ok

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Avon on Sun Dec 29 21:47:00 2019
    Interesting its still sitting here... I'll give it a
    prod..

    ok

    Forget mine, its waiting for something, another life maybe, but its not ìleaving home. :)

    Spec


    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: (21:3/101)
  • From Embalmed@21:4/166 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 12 04:30:53 2020
    Hey Netsurge,
    Did you get my netmail?

    |07E|10m|07b|10a|07l|10m|07e|10d |12-----------------------------------------------------
    |09Black Lodge Research BBS |11blacklodgeresearch.org:4022
    |08fsxNet: 21:4/166

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Black Lodge Research BBS (21:4/166)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Embalmed on Thu Feb 13 01:55:41 2020
    On 11 Feb 2020 at 11:30p, Embalmed pondered and said...

    Hey Netsurge,
    Did you get my netmail?

    I got one, do I win free chocolate :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Embalmed on Wed Feb 12 15:06:16 2020
    Did you get my netmail?

    I have not. Did you send it via fsxNet?

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Embalmed@21:4/166 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 13 04:23:27 2020
    Did you get my netmail?

    I have not. Did you send it via fsxNet?


    Yep to 21:4/154

    |07E|10m|07b|10a|07l|10m|07e|10d |12-----------------------------------------------------
    |09Black Lodge Research BBS |11blacklodgeresearch.org:4022
    |08fsxNet: 21:4/166

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Black Lodge Research BBS (21:4/166)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Embalmed on Thu Feb 13 14:14:24 2020
    Yep to 21:4/154

    Looks like you won't be in the fsxNet nodelist until tomorrows release so my tracking system rejects your message (You should have gotten a bounce back saying so).

    My system will process the new nodelists tomorrow so you can wait till then
    or you can email it to me at frank@diskshop.ca and I will get you setup.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Embalmed@21:4/166 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 13 20:34:03 2020
    Looks like you won't be in the fsxNet nodelist until tomorrows release
    so my tracking system rejects your message (You should have gotten a bounce back saying so).

    No bounceback, at least nothing I saw in the logs or otherwise.

    |07E|10m|07b|10a|07l|10m|07e|10d |12-----------------------------------------------------
    |09Black Lodge Research BBS |11blacklodgeresearch.org:4022
    |08fsxNet: 21:4/166

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Black Lodge Research BBS (21:4/166)
  • From Embalmed@21:4/166 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 13 20:46:43 2020
    Looks like you won't be in the fsxNet nodelist until tomorrows release
    so my tracking system rejects your message (You should have gotten a bounce back saying so).

    Also, I was in last weeks fsx node list :P

    |07E|10m|07b|10a|07l|10m|07e|10d |12-----------------------------------------------------
    |09Black Lodge Research BBS |11blacklodgeresearch.org:4022
    |08fsxNet: 21:4/166

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Black Lodge Research BBS (21:4/166)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Embalmed on Fri Feb 14 17:54:00 2020
    On 13 Feb 2020 at 03:46p, Embalmed pondered and said...

    Looks like you won't be in the fsxNet nodelist until tomorrows releas so my tracking system rejects your message (You should have gotten a bounce back saying so).

    Also, I was in last weeks fsx node list :P

    would you like to send another test netmail. I can check the HUB logs for you both later and post confirmation it was routed onwards to Frank if you guys would like?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Embalmed on Fri Feb 14 02:44:44 2020
    No bounceback, at least nothing I saw in the logs or otherwise.

    I realized it after I posted that. I have been working with the author of RNtrack to work out the bugs in the latest version and I just found one.

    Feel free to email the app to me in the meantime to frank@diskshop.ca and I will get you going.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Embalmed on Fri Feb 14 02:47:18 2020
    Also, I was in last weeks fsx node list :P

    You are not listed in the 038 nodelist for fsxNet published Feb 7 2020 which
    is last weeks nodelist.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Avon on Fri Feb 14 02:48:22 2020
    would you like to send another test netmail. I can check the HUB logs
    for you both later and post confirmation it was routed onwards to Frank
    if you guys would like?

    It was routed to me fine, but seeing as he isn't listed in the 038 nodelist from Friday, RNTrack rejected his message due to him not being in the
    nodelist.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Sat Feb 15 02:12:08 2020
    On 13 Feb 2020 at 09:14a, Netsurge pondered and said...

    My system will process the new nodelists tomorrow so you can wait till then or you can email it to me at frank@diskshop.ca and I will get you setup.

    Do you run a weekly process for nodelists? I ask only because if I hatch a
    new nodelist out sooner than that I wonder if that's why you may not have
    seen him sooner?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Sat Feb 15 02:14:45 2020
    On 13 Feb 2020 at 09:48p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    would you like to send another test netmail. I can check the HUB logs
    It was routed to me fine, but seeing as he isn't listed in the 038 nodelist from Friday, RNTrack rejected his message due to him not being
    in the nodelist.

    I think because I added him then hatched the next fridays nodelist thereafter and (at least at Agency) Mystic imported it and used it.. then he's showing here ... and possibly sooner that at your end if you are only processing nodelists on the Friday you expect them? Dunno just a guess on my part.

    I've added a few nodes lately and can't recall which day I did what :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Avon on Fri Feb 14 15:14:24 2020
    Do you run a weekly process for nodelists? I ask only because if I hatch
    a new nodelist out sooner than that I wonder if that's why you may not have seen him sooner?

    Yes, Fridays, but if you hatch a nodelist out before your scheduled nodelist release date (the one you set in your processor like makenl) and it will
    always set the header and extension to the previous date. For example. If you send out a new nodelist on Tuesday, it will have last Fridays date and day number.

    When processing nodelists, if it sees the same day number as an extension
    then it won't reprocess it as a new diff.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Sat Feb 15 09:36:51 2020
    On 14 Feb 2020 at 10:14a, Netsurge pondered and said...

    When processing nodelists, if it sees the same day number as an extension then it won't reprocess it as a new diff.

    Paul, have you given any thought to doing DNS distribution
    for nodelist data, a la http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001 ?}
    I'd kind of like to play around with that.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to tenser on Fri Feb 14 15:47:28 2020
    Paul, have you given any thought to doing DNS distribution
    for nodelist data, a la http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001 ?}
    I'd kind of like to play around with that.

    I do it for SciNet. Take a look at the scinet-ftn.org domain. It works well.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Sat Feb 15 17:57:00 2020
    On 02-15-20 04:36, tenser wrote to Netsurge <=-

    On 14 Feb 2020 at 10:14a, Netsurge pondered and said...

    When processing nodelists, if it sees the same day number as an extension then it won't reprocess it as a new diff.

    Paul, have you given any thought to doing DNS distribution
    for nodelist data, a la http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001 ?}
    I'd kind of like to play around with that.

    He already does. :)


    ... All right, so I like spending money! But name one other extravagance.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Sat Feb 15 18:00:00 2020
    On 02-14-20 10:47, Netsurge wrote to tenser <=-

    Paul, have you given any thought to doing DNS distribution
    for nodelist data, a la http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001 ?}
    I'd kind of like to play around with that.

    I do it for SciNet. Take a look at the scinet-ftn.org domain. It works well.

    I do it for vkradio - ftn.vkradio.com. My nodelist processing automagically updates the DNS too. :)


    ... Help! I've fallen and can't reach my beer!
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Sat Feb 15 21:26:52 2020
    On 14 Feb 2020 at 10:14a, Netsurge pondered and said...

    For example. If you send out a new nodelist on Tuesday, it will have
    last Fridays date and day number.

    When processing nodelists, if it sees the same day number as an extension then it won't reprocess it as a new diff.

    Mystic seems to handle them fine and pick up the changes but I take your
    point and thanks for the explanation. I wonder if I should be releasing diff files but then ideally I would want Mystic to handle them also and I am not sure if right now it would?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to tenser on Sat Feb 15 21:32:50 2020
    On 15 Feb 2020 at 04:36a, tenser pondered and said...

    Paul, have you given any thought to doing DNS distribution
    for nodelist data, a la http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001 ?}
    I'd kind of like to play around with that.

    Yes I have something in place already linked to fsxnet.nz

    With the help of Vorlon we have x 2 DNS servers for this domain and for nodes with static IP I can assign vanity domain names such as yourbbsname.fsxnet.nz

    There's a also a script I need to automate that will create a record based
    off the nodelist such that

    f100.n1.z21.fsxnet.nz resolves to agency.bbs.nz using

    f100.n1.z21 IN CNAME agency.bbs.nz.

    Pinging agency.bbs.nz [2001:470:d:123::50] with 32 bytes of data:
    Reply from 2001:470:d:123::50: time<1ms
    Reply from 2001:470:d:123::50: time<1ms
    Reply from 2001:470:d:123::50: time<1ms
    Reply from 2001:470:d:123::50: time<1ms

    f101.n1.z21 IN CNAME ipv4.agency.bbs.nz.

    ping f101.n1.z21.fsxnet.nz

    Pinging ipv4.agency.bbs.nz [219.89.83.33] with 32 bytes of data:
    Reply from 219.89.83.33: bytes=32 time<1ms TTL=64
    Reply from 219.89.83.33: bytes=32 time<1ms TTL=64
    Reply from 219.89.83.33: bytes=32 time<1ms TTL=64

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Avon on Sat Feb 15 21:43:02 2020
    On 15 Feb 2020 at 04:32p, Avon pondered and said...

    On 15 Feb 2020 at 04:36a, tenser pondered and said...

    Paul, have you given any thought to doing DNS distribution
    for nodelist data, a la http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001 ?}
    I'd kind of like to play around with that.

    Yes I have something in place already linked to fsxnet.nz

    Oh cool!

    With the help of Vorlon we have x 2 DNS servers for this domain and for nodes with static IP I can assign vanity domain names such as yourbbsname.fsxnet.nz

    There's a also a script I need to automate that will create a record
    based off the nodelist such that

    f100.n1.z21.fsxnet.nz resolves to agency.bbs.nz using

    f100.n1.z21 IN CNAME agency.bbs.nz.
    f101.n1.z21 IN CNAME ipv4.agency.bbs.nz.

    [ping results elided for brevity]

    Ah, very cool. I was thinking more of the SRV record stuff
    in FTS-5004 so you could get, e.g., binkd addresses and
    things like that. Using TXT and HINFO RRs in the zone
    files would also get you all sorts of interesting information.

    Is any of that data in place?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From g00r00@21:1/108 to Avon on Sat Feb 15 04:19:12 2020
    When processing nodelists, if it sees the same day number as an exten then it won't reprocess it as a new diff.

    Mystic seems to handle them fine and pick up the changes but I take your point and thanks for the explanation. I wonder if I should be releasing diff files but then ideally I would want Mystic to handle them also and
    I am not sure if right now it would?

    Mystic doesn't merge DIFF files just full nodelists, and honestly I've had no real plans to support them. Its the same effort to just send the entire thing.

    DIFF made a lot of sense back when we had a one megabyte nodelist that would take 20 minutes and cost a $4 call to download. But now why send a 2k DIFF and complicate the process to produce and merge it, when you can just send a 10k fsxnode.z74 file in the same amount of time with less effort?

    I'm not totally against putting in support to merge them someday but right now it'd be a real low priority as I think my time is better spent on a lot of other things (and Mystic's system now seems to work for everyone)

    Of course if there is a more functional reason I missed (I don't always read this base) let me know!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/14 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Sector 7 (21:1/108)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Avon on Sat Feb 15 06:13:14 2020
    Mystic seems to handle them fine and pick up the changes but I take your point and thanks for the explanation. I wonder if I should be releasing diff files but then ideally I would want Mystic to handle them also and
    I am not sure if right now it would?

    What do you use to create your nodelist? If you use something like makenl, it will do everything for you with regards to nodelist creation, diff creation, zipping, arcing, raring, lzhing, etc...

    Mystic processes the nodelist, but husky for example, follows the FTSC spec
    and won't reprocess/replace the nodelist unless the day number equals or matches the next release date. My Mystic setup saw him, but RNTrack and husky didn't as the nodelist you hatched out had the same day number.

    One way around this, if you do use makenl, is switch it's settings to daily instead of weekly. This way, when you release a new nodelist, it will
    contain that days number and will be processed properly by systems who use
    FTSC spec nodelist processing.

    I have a shit ton of experience with makenl which, IMO, is the best of the
    best for this. If you want, I can give you a hand scripting and setting it up so it just runs.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Avon on Sat Feb 15 22:02:00 2020
    On 02-15-20 16:32, Avon wrote to tenser <=-

    On 15 Feb 2020 at 04:36a, tenser pondered and said...

    Paul, have you given any thought to doing DNS distribution
    for nodelist data, a la http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001 ?}
    I'd kind of like to play around with that.

    Yes I have something in place already linked to fsxnet.nz

    With the help of Vorlon we have x 2 DNS servers for this domain and for nodes with static IP I can assign vanity domain names such as yourbbsname.fsxnet.nz

    There's a also a script I need to automate that will create a record
    based off the nodelist such that

    Did I send you the Perl script that I use? It creates the following from a standard nodelist:

    CNAME records for hosts with a domain name.
    A records for hosts with IPv4 addresses in the nodelist (no support for literal IPv6 addresses yet)
    SRV records for hosts with port information, so that hosts listening on non standard ports can be found.

    The script was originally written for Fidonet, but the mods required to make it work with a different FTN net name are fairly trivial.

    My system uses a set of cron jobs to process the VKRadio nodelist:

    Cron job 0 (as root)
    Ensure that the network share where MakeNL's data is kept is mounted.

    Cron job 1 (as mystic)
    Generate the fully formatted nodelist using MakeNL, update the infopack and hatch the files.

    Cron job 2 (as root)
    Generate DNS zone files from nodelist data and refresh DNS master.

    Cron job 3 (on a separate machine)
    Fetch a copy of the infopack from Freeway for the backup web server (which lives in a data centre).


    ... Teamwork is critical; it allows you to blame someone else.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to g00r00 on Sat Feb 15 22:07:00 2020
    On 02-14-20 23:19, g00r00 wrote to Avon <=-

    Mystic doesn't merge DIFF files just full nodelists, and honestly I've
    had no real plans to support them. Its the same effort to just send
    the entire thing.

    These days with fast and cheap to free incremental data costs, your approach makes sense. To transfer a full nodelist these days takes practically no time.
    Even dialup costs are much cheaper these days, and for many, the only true "long distance" calls are international calle. Everything else is either free or a flat untimed fee, if you have the right plan.


    ... If you have a rotary phone, please press 1 now.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to g00r00 on Sun Feb 16 01:47:28 2020
    On 14 Feb 2020 at 11:19p, g00r00 pondered and said...
    point and thanks for the explanation. I wonder if I should be releasi diff files but then ideally I would want Mystic to handle them also a I am not sure if right now it would?

    Mystic doesn't merge DIFF files just full nodelists, and honestly I've
    had no real plans to support them. Its the same effort to just send the entire thing.

    I agree and it's fine by me. My comments were really just by way of trying to see if I could meet an apparent need by other FTN software so they could to notice a change in the nodelist. From my own POV as a Mystic guy those nodelist updates I hatch (often more than weekly) work just fine when I go to look up a new user in the Mystic nodelist browser.

    a 2k DIFF and complicate the process to produce and merge it, when you
    can just send a 10k fsxnode.z74 file in the same amount of time with
    less effort?

    I agree totally.

    Of course if there is a more functional reason I missed (I don't always read this base) let me know!

    There's none and I'd say don't bother :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Embalmed@21:4/166 to Avon on Sat Feb 15 20:02:19 2020
    would you like to send another test netmail. I can check the HUB logs
    for you both later and post confirmation it was routed onwards to Frank
    if you guys would like?

    I don't think that is necessary, I have been able to netmail you, Dan,
    and StackFault without any issues. I think probably they all accept netmail from unknown nodes.

    |07E|10m|07b|10a|07l|10m|07e|10d |12-----------------------------------------------------
    |09Black Lodge Research BBS |11blacklodgeresearch.org:4022
    |08fsxNet: 21:4/166

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Black Lodge Research BBS (21:4/166)
  • From Embalmed@21:4/166 to Netsurge on Sat Feb 15 21:15:27 2020
    Yes, Fridays, but if you hatch a nodelist out before your scheduled nodelist release date (the one you set in your processor like makenl)
    and it will always set the header and extension to the previous date.
    For example. If you send out a new nodelist on Tuesday, it will have
    last Fridays date and day number.

    that explains it, Avon hatched it on feb 7/8 but it said the date was feb
    14th. I commented on it, and there was a typo in the name. My BBS had
    picked up a couple nodelist updates since last week.

    |07E|10m|07b|10a|07l|10m|07e|10d |12-----------------------------------------------------
    |09Black Lodge Research BBS |11blacklodgeresearch.org:4022
    |08fsxNet: 21:4/166

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Black Lodge Research BBS (21:4/166)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Embalmed on Sun Feb 16 18:41:42 2020
    On 15 Feb 2020 at 03:02p, Embalmed pondered and said...

    I don't think that is necessary, I have been able to netmail you, Dan, and StackFault without any issues. I think probably they all accept netmail from unknown nodes.

    OK all good :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Embalmed on Sun Feb 16 07:28:04 2020
    I don't think that is necessary, I have been able to netmail you, Dan, and StackFault without any issues. I think probably they all accept netmail from unknown nodes.

    Got yours as well now and have responded.

    I route a lot of netmail for Fidonet and that shitty ass network is in
    constant flux, a netmail tracker is almost mandatory in order to avoid
    netmail messages that loop forever.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Embalmed on Sun Feb 16 07:31:14 2020
    that explains it, Avon hatched it on feb 7/8 but it said the date was feb 14th. I commented on it, and there was a typo in the name. My BBS had picked up a couple nodelist updates since last week.

    It's all good now. Although Mystic will alway reprocess nodelists when you
    tell it to, most of the older software tends to stick to the FTSC specs.
    This offers maximum compatibility. In this hobby, it is real easy to break something as you really don't know what software people are using. Following the FTSC specs is usually the safest bet.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From g00r00@21:1/108 to Netsurge on Sun Feb 16 16:37:29 2020
    It's all good now. Although Mystic will alway reprocess nodelists when
    you tell it to, most of the older software tends to stick to the FTSC specs. This offers maximum compatibility. In this hobby, it is real easy to break something as you really don't know what software people are using. Following the FTSC specs is usually the safest bet.

    Mystic doesn't do any processing of nodelists, it uses raw nodelists for lookups. Its literally impossible for it to not be following FTSC specs.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/15 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Sector 7 (21:1/108)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to g00r00 on Sun Feb 16 19:11:04 2020
    Mystic doesn't do any processing of nodelists, it uses raw nodelists for lookups. Its literally impossible for it to not be following FTSC specs.

    I should have rephrased that as I know it doesn't process them in the V7 standard and the nodelist browser actually has nothing to do with the
    nodelist standard in general as it is just used for lookups, not actual
    process of HUB routing tags etc...

    The entire issue actually had to do with the process Avon uses to hatch out nodelists, nothing at all to do with Mystic.

    Either way, I think this is all resolved as it looks like Avon will be releasing the nodelist using a daily standard and not a weekly one.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Mon Feb 17 17:34:09 2020
    On 16 Feb 2020 at 02:11p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    Either way, I think this is all resolved as it looks like Avon will be releasing the nodelist using a daily standard and not a weekly one.

    HI there :)

    I'd sent you a reply to your netmail the other day, just checking you got
    both of them?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Avon on Mon Feb 17 01:50:02 2020
    I'd sent you a reply to your netmail the other day, just checking you got both of them?

    I did, but it seems that the wrapping screwed up the layout of your makenl
    .ctl file. I have responded asking that you email it to me so I can help you get a daily going.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Tue Feb 18 02:31:10 2020
    On 16 Feb 2020 at 08:50p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    I did, but it seems that the wrapping screwed up the layout of your
    makenl .ctl file. I have responded asking that you email it to me so I
    can help you get a daily going.

    Thank you. I have emailed you tonight.

    Best, Paul.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/02/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to tenser on Tue Feb 18 22:45:18 2020
    15 Feb 20 04:36, you wrote to Netsurge:

    On 14 Feb 2020 at 10:14a, Netsurge pondered and said...

    When processing nodelists, if it sees the same day number as an extension
    then it won't reprocess it as a new diff.

    Paul, have you given any thought to doing DNS distribution
    for nodelist data, a la http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001 ?}
    I'd kind of like to play around with that.


    IMHO that specification and most implementations are broken by design. The problem are SRV
    records, non-standard ports and different hostnames for different protocols.

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Avon on Wed Feb 19 01:08:28 2020
    15 Feb 20 16:32, you wrote to tenser:

    On 15 Feb 2020 at 04:36a, tenser pondered and said...

    Paul, have you given any thought to doing DNS distribution
    for nodelist data, a la http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001 ?}
    I'd kind of like to play around with that.

    Yes I have something in place already linked to fsxnet.nz

    With the help of Vorlon we have x 2 DNS servers for this domain and for
    nodes
    with static IP I can assign vanity domain names such as
    yourbbsname.fsxnet.nz

    There's a also a script I need to automate that will create a record based off the nodelist such that

    f100.n1.z21.fsxnet.nz resolves to agency.bbs.nz using

    f100.n1.z21 IN CNAME agency.bbs.nz.

    But binkp for 21:1/100 is on port 24556, so it doesn't work in this case.

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 18 23:25:48 2020
    15 Feb 20 17:02, you wrote to Avon:

    Did I send you the Perl script that I use? It creates the following from
    a
    standard nodelist:

    CNAME records for hosts with a domain name.
    A records for hosts with IPv4 addresses in the nodelist (no support for
    literal
    IPv6 addresses yet)
    SRV records for hosts with port information, so that hosts listening on
    non
    standard ports can be found.

    What about hosts that already use a SRV record?

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Oli on Wed Feb 19 16:21:26 2020
    On 18 Feb 2020 at 05:45p, Oli pondered and said...

    Paul, have you given any thought to doing DNS distribution
    for nodelist data, a la http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001 ?}
    I'd kind of like to play around with that.


    IMHO that specification and most implementations are broken by design.
    The problem are SRV
    records, non-standard ports and different hostnames for different protocols.

    You'll get no argument from me that most of the FTSC
    standards are broken, or at a minimum poorly specified.

    That said, I'm not sure I follow your argument: could
    you expand on it a bit? If one is going to use
    non-standard ports (and there are actually some decent
    reasons for that), then SRV records seem OK to me.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/16 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Oli on Wed Feb 19 14:00:00 2020
    On 02-18-20 18:25, Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-


    What about hosts that already use a SRV record?

    I don't think that would be relevant, because there would be a SRV record for the nodelist DNS domain name with the correct port info (taken from the nodelist) added anyway.


    ... Okay - right after this one we're BACK on TOPIC
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Oli on Wed Feb 19 14:23:00 2020
    On 02-18-20 20:08, Oli wrote to Avon <=-

    But binkp for 21:1/100 is on port 24556, so it doesn't work in this
    case.

    On VKRadio, there would be a SRV record for such a system.


    ... Teamwork is critical; it allows you to blame someone else.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Wed Feb 19 01:30:42 2020
    I don't think that would be relevant, because there would be a SRV
    record for the nodelist DNS domain name with the correct port info
    (taken from the nodelist) added anyway.

    You are correct. As per the spec SRV records will be created for the
    following flags:

    IBN
    IFC
    IFT
    ITN
    IVM

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 19 17:55:00 2020
    On 02-18-20 20:30, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I don't think that would be relevant, because there would be a SRV
    record for the nodelist DNS domain name with the correct port info
    (taken from the nodelist) added anyway.

    You are correct. As per the spec SRV records will be created for the following flags:

    IBN
    IFC
    IFT
    ITN
    IVM

    That's correct, and the script I use does generate SRV records as needed (whenever a port is specified for a protocol in the nodelist flags). So far, I've only tested IBN, as my net only uses BinkP.

    I'd like to add other protocols, but need to work out what mailers to use. My hub runs Mystic on a Pi :)


    ... Ham radio operators do it with frequency.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Wed Feb 19 20:07:23 2020
    On 19 Feb 2020 at 09:23a, Vk3jed pondered and said...


    But binkp for 21:1/100 is on port 24556, so it doesn't work in this case.

    On VKRadio, there would be a SRV record for such a system.

    Can you guide me please as to what I should add?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/16 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Oli on Wed Feb 19 20:08:20 2020
    On 18 Feb 2020 at 08:08p, Oli pondered and said...

    f100.n1.z21.fsxnet.nz resolves to agency.bbs.nz using

    f100.n1.z21 IN CNAME agency.bbs.nz.

    But binkp for 21:1/100 is on port 24556, so it doesn't work in this case.

    Thanks for the heads up. I'm open to guidance as to how to add records to
    make things work.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/16 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Wed Feb 19 02:47:28 2020
    I'd like to add other protocols, but need to work out what mailers to
    use. My hub runs Mystic on a Pi :)

    You can always just setup an ftp server dedicated to mail and that will cover IFT, you can also do vmodem, emsi over telnet using ifcico which should
    compile on the Pi.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Avon on Wed Feb 19 02:54:14 2020
    Can you guide me please as to what I should add?

    Do you want me to send you the perl script I use for SciNet? It does
    everything for you and creates a bind9 compatible hosts conf file.

    If you want to do it manually, here are the specs http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001

    If you want an example, use https://mxtoolbox.com/SRVLookup.aspx and lookup your node in SciNet's SRV record for binkp as you use 24555. It is _binkp._tcp.f102.n3.z77.scinet-ftn.org

    I can also publish the DNS for you if you wish. I have a cluster of DNS
    servers and have the infrastructure all setup here and already get a copy of the fsxnet nodelist since I am a member of fsxnet. It would be just one more script I run and no big deal. You would just have to point the domain you
    want to use to my dns servers.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Avon on Wed Feb 19 21:16:28 2020
    On 19 Feb 2020 at 03:08p, Avon pondered and said...

    On 18 Feb 2020 at 08:08p, Oli pondered and said...

    f100.n1.z21.fsxnet.nz resolves to agency.bbs.nz using

    f100.n1.z21 IN CNAME agency.bbs.nz.

    But binkp for 21:1/100 is on port 24556, so it doesn't work in this c

    Thanks for the heads up. I'm open to guidance as to how to add records to make things work.

    The issue in this case is that you shouldn't add SRV
    RR's for a hostname that is an alias (e.g., a CNAME).

    So if `f100.n1.z21.fsxnet.org` is a CNAME for
    `agency.bbs.nz` then you shouldn't add an SRV record
    for it with your binkp port (similarly for telnet,
    SSH, etc).

    It's a bit unfortunate, perhaps, but that's just how
    DNS works.

    The usual work around is not to have CNAME RR's for
    such aliases, but rather to have real A and AAAA RRs.
    However, that leads to a problem of updating those
    (duplicate) RRs if and when the target IP addresses
    change. With CNAMEs, this is transparent; with
    dup As and AAAAs it's obviously not.

    The upshot is that, if you provide CNAME aliases in
    a nodelist domain, then it's up to the target to
    properly use and maintain SRV information.

    Another workaround might be to have a dedicated
    "nodelist" domain; suppose one ponies up the 20
    euros a year for a Dutch domain like `fsxnet.nl`;
    then that domain might consist only of SRV
    records pointing to actual host names (not CNAMEs).
    People who want port information do SRV queries
    against that domain; if you just want to connect,
    you do a query against the domain in fsxnet.org.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/16 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to tenser on Wed Feb 19 20:39:18 2020

    19 Feb 20 16:16, you wrote to Avon:

    The upshot is that, if you provide CNAME aliases in
    a nodelist domain, then it's up to the target to
    properly use and maintain SRV information.

    I don't understand what you mean with that (I know what a CNAME and SRV is, but
    still don't
    get it).

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Oli on Thu Feb 20 11:00:23 2020
    On 19 Feb 2020 at 03:39p, Oli pondered and said...


    19 Feb 20 16:16, you wrote to Avon:

    The upshot is that, if you provide CNAME aliases in
    a nodelist domain, then it's up to the target to
    properly use and maintain SRV information.

    I don't understand what you mean with that (I know what a CNAME and SRV is, but still don't
    get it).

    I expanded on it in a later post, but perhaps an
    illustrative example would be helpful.

    Consider two domains, `foo.com` and `bar.com`.
    Suppose there is a hostname, `baz` in `foo.com`,
    so that `baz.foo.com` resolves to some A RR.
    There might also be other RRs associated with
    `baz.foo.com` (MX, SRV, HINFO, TXT, whatever).

    Now, suppose I create a CNAME in `bar.com`
    aliasing `baz.bar.com` to `baz.foo.com`. Then,
    according to RFC1034, there "should" be no
    other RRs associated with `baz.bar.com` (the
    alias). RFC2181 outright forbids other RRs
    (section 10.1), though 2181 is standards
    track. Anyway, the point is, CNAMEs are
    mutually exclusive with other RRs, except
    for a few DNSSEC-related records, but those
    have to do with validating the CNAME itself,
    not what it points to.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Avon on Thu Feb 20 00:05:00 2020
    On 02-19-20 15:07, Avon wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    On 19 Feb 2020 at 09:23a, Vk3jed pondered and said...


    But binkp for 21:1/100 is on port 24556, so it doesn't work in this case.

    On VKRadio, there would be a SRV record for such a system.

    Can you guide me please as to what I should add?

    Use the script, it's all there. :)

    But here's an example of a SRV record generated by the script.

    _binkp._tcp.f115.n1.z432 IN SRV 0 0 24555 anybox.freedyndns.de.

    That's for 432:1/115. This is used instead of an A or CNAME record when the binkp server uses a non standard port.

    So for Agency, the SRV record would look like:

    _binkp._tcp.f100.n1.z21 IN SRV 0 0 24556 agency.bbs.nz.


    ... We are operating on many levels here.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 20 00:29:00 2020
    On 02-18-20 21:47, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I'd like to add other protocols, but need to work out what mailers to
    use. My hub runs Mystic on a Pi :)

    You can always just setup an ftp server dedicated to mail and that will cover IFT, you can also do vmodem, emsi over telnet using ifcico which should compile on the Pi.

    Sounds like some projects to take on. I'll have to check out ifcico at some stage, and FTP should be straight forward, at least in theory.

    ... Chain Tagline Stolen 4 Times (add one when you steal it)
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 20 16:14:00 2020
    On 02-18-20 21:54, Netsurge wrote to Avon <=-

    Can you guide me please as to what I should add?

    Do you want me to send you the perl script I use for SciNet? It does everything for you and creates a bind9 compatible hosts conf file.

    Wonder if it's the same one I use for VKRadio, which Paul has a copy of (well, I did send it to him). :)

    If you want to do it manually, here are the specs http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5004.001

    If you want an example, use https://mxtoolbox.com/SRVLookup.aspx and lookup your node in SciNet's SRV record for binkp as you use 24555. It
    is _binkp._tcp.f102.n3.z77.scinet-ftn.org

    That looks correct. I have similar SRV records in my DNS.

    I can also publish the DNS for you if you wish. I have a cluster of DNS servers and have the infrastructure all setup here and already get a
    copy of the fsxnet nodelist since I am a member of fsxnet. It would be just one more script I run and no big deal. You would just have to
    point the domain you want to use to my dns servers.

    I suspect Paul would like to do it himself. I think he also may have static hostnames that will need to be included, which may mean a bit more Perl hacking for him, or a second script to generate those parts and then merge them with the main zone file.

    I'm also one for "teach a man to fish and you've fed him for life". :) And for the record, I also have my DNS server on the BBS here, which has a slave on the other side of the planet. :)

    BTW, I must join SciNet sometime. Thought I started down that road, but must have got distracted (pretty easy for me ;) ).


    ... Don't you just love a tag line that references itself; like this one?
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Thu Feb 20 16:25:00 2020
    On 02-19-20 16:16, tenser wrote to Avon <=-

    The issue in this case is that you shouldn't add SRV
    RR's for a hostname that is an alias (e.g., a CNAME).

    The Perl script I have knows this and only creates the SRV record when one is required, without the CNAME or A record.

    So if `f100.n1.z21.fsxnet.org` is a CNAME for
    `agency.bbs.nz` then you shouldn't add an SRV record
    for it with your binkp port (similarly for telnet,
    SSH, etc).

    It's a bit unfortunate, perhaps, but that's just how
    DNS works.

    Yeah, gotta work with how DNS works.

    The usual work around is not to have CNAME RR's for
    such aliases, but rather to have real A and AAAA RRs.
    However, that leads to a problem of updating those
    (duplicate) RRs if and when the target IP addresses
    change. With CNAMEs, this is transparent; with
    dup As and AAAAs it's obviously not.

    The script I use simply just create the SRV records for those hosts that need them. The downside is that you can't ping or do anything else other than have a mailer make a binkp connection. Maintaining A and AAAA records becomes problematic for hosts on dynamic IPs for obvious reasons. Hosts with static IPs could be maintained by the script doing a DNS lookup of the primary hostname to generate A and AAAA records as needed. But the script has no way of knowing which is which. It can only get the information that's currently in DNS.

    Another workaround might be to have a dedicated
    "nodelist" domain; suppose one ponies up the 20
    euros a year for a Dutch domain like `fsxnet.nl`;
    then that domain might consist only of SRV
    records pointing to actual host names (not CNAMEs).
    People who want port information do SRV queries
    against that domain; if you just want to connect,
    you do a query against the domain in fsxnet.org.

    Hmm, that might work, if you point compatible mailers to the domain with the SRV records and generate SRV records for every host in the nodelist. Those entries without port information would simply be given the default port for the protocol in question (e.g. 24554 for binkp).

    That would make the domain with the CNAME records purely for human and other uses where port information is not required in DNS.


    ... The most popular labour-saving device today is still a husband with money. === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Thu Feb 20 04:02:46 2020
    Sounds like some projects to take on. I'll have to check out ifcico at some stage, and FTP should be straight forward, at least in theory.

    It is. I support FTP, Vmodem, TransX, UUEncode email and emsi (along with
    Binkp of course) for SciNet (we even have a node that can offer mail via dialup).

    If you get any of them setup and want a link to test with, you can sign up
    for SciNet and I can feed you any way you want (I sound like a drug dealer).

    I just HPT from the husky project and it has a diskpoll util that can toss
    mail to/from a local disk folder, that makes offering FTP feeds a breeze.
    Setup an FTP server and toss to and from the local path.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Thu Feb 20 04:14:00 2020
    Wonder if it's the same one I use for VKRadio, which Paul has a copy of (well, I did send it to him). :)

    Could be. I have modified it to add a few static hosts and to also support SciNet's email <> netmail gate. It includes SPF and DMARC entries for all of the f.#.n# entries as well as vanity domains that nodes may wish to use for email. It grabs those from the SciNet nodelist which includes the U flag to identify what their vanity domain is like in Paul's case it's ,U,agency.scinet-ftn.org.

    BTW, I must join SciNet sometime. Thought I started down that road, but must have got distracted (pretty easy for me ;) ).

    Get EMSI or Vmodem going if you like a challenge and come join is. Oh look
    a squirrel.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/12 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 20 20:36:00 2020
    On 02-19-20 23:02, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Sounds like some projects to take on. I'll have to check out ifcico at some stage, and FTP should be straight forward, at least in theory.

    It is. I support FTP, Vmodem, TransX, UUEncode email and emsi (along
    with Binkp of course) for SciNet (we even have a node that can offer
    mail via dialup).

    Cool. I need a few pointers in setting ifcico up though. :)

    If you get any of them setup and want a link to test with, you can sign
    up for SciNet and I can feed you any way you want (I sound like a drug dealer).

    Haha cool, would be someth to pla with.

    I just HPT from the husky project and it has a diskpoll util that can
    toss mail to/from a local disk folder, that makes offering FTP feeds a breeze. Setup an FTP server and toss to and from the local path.

    Mystic can do the same. The question is how best to offer FTP in a way that offers security between users (so no oopses by downloading wrong mail, etc), but not falling foul of permissions issues moving the files to/from the various FTP directories. So some questions on setting up the FTP server. I may also have to add a dedicated IP for FTP mail, because Mystic has its own FTP server for user access, and using port 21 would be best.



    ... Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 20 20:37:00 2020
    On 02-19-20 23:14, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Wonder if it's the same one I use for VKRadio, which Paul has a copy of (well, I did send it to him). :)

    Could be. I have modified it to add a few static hosts and to also
    support SciNet's email <> netmail gate. It includes SPF and DMARC
    entries for all of the f.#.n# entries as well as vanity domains that
    nodes may wish to use for email. It grabs those from the SciNet
    nodelist which includes the U flag to identify what their vanity domain
    is like in Paul's case it's ,U,agency.scinet-ftn.org.

    Cool. :) We should swap notes sometime. :) Onlt things I did was change the network name and add the secondary (slave) DNS NS RR to the script.

    BTW, I must join SciNet sometime. Thought I started down that road, but must have got distracted (pretty easy for me ;) ).

    Get EMSI or Vmodem going if you like a challenge and come join is. Oh
    look a squirrel.

    Haha it's a bit like that, I do have ADHD. :D

    Speaking of which, off to training. :D


    ... I want to be what I was when I started to be what I am now.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Thu Feb 20 05:09:00 2020
    Mystic can do the same. The question is how best to offer FTP in a way that offers security between users (so no oopses by downloading wrong mail, etc), but not falling foul of permissions issues moving the files to/from the various FTP directories. So some questions on setting up
    the FTP server. I may also have to add a dedicated IP for FTP mail, because Mystic has its own FTP server for user access, and using port 21 would be best.

    That is easy. I run the FTP server on linux. Each node who gets mail via
    FTP has an account that is chroot'd and jailed to their home dir. They can
    only access their home dir. I then toss their mail to their in or out folder inside their home folder. When they login, they only see their mail and can't change dirs to anyone elses folder.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 20 23:46:04 2020

    On 19 Feb 2020 at 11:14p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    Wonder if it's the same one I use for VKRadio, which Paul has a copy (well, I did send it to him). :)

    Could be. I have modified it to add a few static hosts and to also
    support SciNet's email <> netmail gate. It includes SPF and DMARC

    I also have some static hosts in the zone file I'll need to provision for...
    I was wondering how best to do that,,

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Avon on Thu Feb 20 15:38:32 2020
    I also have some static hosts in the zone file I'll need to provision for... I was wondering how best to do that,,

    I will drop my perl script into your inbound. It is pretty well commented and you will see where I add static A records, search for twgs and you should
    find the section of the script that adds the A records.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Avon on Fri Feb 21 06:10:00 2020
    I also have some static hosts in the zone file I'll need to provision for... I was wondering how best to do that,,

    Stick 'em in your hosts file? :)


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Fri Feb 21 17:30:40 2020
    On 20 Feb 2020 at 10:38a, Netsurge pondered and said...

    I will drop my perl script into your inbound. It is pretty well
    commented and you will see where I add static A records, search for twgs and you should find the section of the script that adds the A records.

    Thank you. I'm at work (lunch break) but will dig into this tonight/tomorrow :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Sat Feb 22 00:39:00 2020
    On 02-20-20 00:09, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    That is easy. I run the FTP server on linux. Each node who gets mail
    via FTP has an account that is chroot'd and jailed to their home dir.
    They can only access their home dir. I then toss their mail to their in
    or out folder inside their home folder. When they login, they only see their mail and can't change dirs to anyone elses folder.

    The issues are:

    1. I'm running Mystic on Linux, and I have an FTP server already (Mystic's FTP server)

    2. If I do it on the same machine, I have to somehow jump through permissions hoops (Mystic runs as a different user to anyone else).

    So how exactly are you setup? Details please. :)


    ... These are the voyages of the starchip Enterkey...
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Fri Feb 21 15:35:28 2020
    1. I'm running Mystic on Linux, and I have an FTP server already (Mystic's FTP server)

    You can run something like vsftp as the secondary FTP server and run in on an alternate port such as 2121 then make sure you use the IFT:2121 flag in your nodelist entry.

    2. If I do it on the same machine, I have to somehow jump through permissions hoops (Mystic runs as a different user to anyone else).

    See note above, running an additional FTP server would isolate user access
    from Mystic's userbase. You would then just create local users who would be limited to their own directories.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Sat Feb 22 20:27:00 2020
    On 02-21-20 10:35, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    1. I'm running Mystic on Linux, and I have an FTP server already (Mystic's FTP server)

    You can run something like vsftp as the secondary FTP server and run in
    on an alternate port such as 2121 then make sure you use the IFT:2121
    flag in your nodelist entry.

    I supposed that would work, though I would have to manually (i.e. hardcoded into the script) generate the A and AAAA records, alongside the SRV record. Other than adding a bit of Perl code once off, similar to what I do for additional NS records for slave DNS servers, no biggie, because all my IPs are static. And as I know that, I don't need to go through the whole checking that DNS is in sync routine.

    2. If I do it on the same machine, I have to somehow jump through permissions hoops (Mystic runs as a different user to anyone else).

    See note above, running an additional FTP server would isolate user
    access from Mystic's userbase. You would then just create local users
    who would be limited to their own directories.

    Yeah, that makes sense. :)

    Time to experiment soon. :)


    ... But if the handwriting on the wall is a forgery?
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Sat Feb 22 05:20:22 2020
    I supposed that would work, though I would have to manually (i.e. hardcoded into the script) generate the A and AAAA records, alongside
    the SRV record. Other than adding a bit of Perl code once off, similar
    to what I do for additional NS records for slave DNS servers, no biggie, because all my IPs are static. And as I know that, I don't need to go through the whole checking that DNS is in sync routine.

    I am not sure what script you are using, but the one I have does all of that. If it finds a nodelist flag for internet transport like IBN,ITN,IFT,etc that has a number associated with it that isn't the default port like IBN:24555,IFT:2121,ITN:2323,etc it will generate the needed SRV records for you. My scripts follows FTSC-5004 to a T.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Sat Feb 22 23:59:00 2020
    On 02-22-20 00:20, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I am not sure what script you are using, but the one I have does all of that. If it finds a nodelist flag for internet transport like IBN,ITN,IFT,etc that has a number associated with it that isn't the default port like IBN:24555,IFT:2121,ITN:2323,etc it will generate the needed SRV records for you. My scripts follows FTSC-5004 to a T.

    It will generate a SRV record for the protocol with the non standard port. I don't know if it will generate SRV records (with default ports) for the other protocols.

    I'm talking about the case where you have IBN,IFT:2121,ITN...

    ... A man who buys a mobile home doesn't get a lot.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Sat Feb 22 16:18:58 2020
    It will generate a SRV record for the protocol with the non standard
    port. I don't know if it will generate SRV records (with default ports) for the other protocols.

    I'm talking about the case where you have IBN,IFT:2121,ITN...

    It should only create SRV records when an non standard port is use on any
    flag beginning with the letter 'I' which identifies an internet capable transport method. Standard ports as to be assumed if you are flying an 'I' flag. If the node entry isn't flying an 'I' flag then they will not have a
    DNS entry. BinkD, Argus, etc all follow this standard. Look up 77:1/100@scinet-ftn.org, if it has an entry and no SRV record then try 24554, if there is a _binkp SRV record then use that port. The same would apply for software transferring via FTP: Is there a record for it, if so is there a SRV record, if not use port 21, if there is a _ftp SRV record then use that port, etc..

    Clear as mud? lol.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Sun Feb 23 11:37:49 2020
    On 22 Feb 2020 at 11:18a, Netsurge pondered and said...

    It will generate a SRV record for the protocol with the non standard port. I don't know if it will generate SRV records (with default por for the other protocols.

    I'm talking about the case where you have IBN,IFT:2121,ITN...

    It should only create SRV records when an non standard port is use on any flag beginning with the letter 'I' which identifies an internet capable transport method. Standard ports as to be assumed if you are flying an
    'I' flag. If the node entry isn't flying an 'I' flag then they will not have a DNS entry. BinkD, Argus, etc all follow this standard. Look up 77:1/100@scinet-ftn.org, if it has an entry and no SRV record then try 24554, if there is a _binkp SRV record then use that port. The same
    would apply for software transferring via FTP: Is there a record for it, if so is there a SRV record, if not use port 21, if there is a _ftp SRV record then use that port, etc..

    In a way, this is kind of unfortunate. Part of the reason
    one might want to put all of the nodelist information into
    DNS zone is to avoid having to consult the nodelist text
    file at all. DNS is a reliable, distributed, replicated
    database with well-defined update properties.

    Having all of the nodelist information available in DNS
    means that anyone on the Internet can extract relevant
    information without having to have an up-to-date copy of
    the nodelist, or a parser etc.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to tenser on Sat Feb 22 21:38:14 2020
    Having all of the nodelist information available in DNS
    means that anyone on the Internet can extract relevant
    information without having to have an up-to-date copy of
    the nodelist, or a parser etc.

    The idea of the FTSC spec was to have mailers be able to connect to a node directly, not to be used as a phone book. Software like BinkD follows the
    spec, if there is a packet marked crash and you don't have an entry for said node it will try to look it up.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Sun Feb 23 17:46:40 2020
    On 22 Feb 2020 at 04:38p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    Having all of the nodelist information available in DNS
    means that anyone on the Internet can extract relevant
    information without having to have an up-to-date copy of
    the nodelist, or a parser etc.

    The idea of the FTSC spec was to have mailers be able to connect to a
    node directly, not to be used as a phone book. Software like BinkD
    follows the spec, if there is a packet marked crash and you don't have
    an entry for said node it will try to look it up.

    That's the bit that's unfortunate. The whole thing
    suffers from a certain poverty of imagination.

    It would be nice to use DNS as a nodelist lookup
    mechanism, regardless of the original intent.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to tenser on Sun Feb 23 00:12:28 2020
    That's the bit that's unfortunate. The whole thing
    suffers from a certain poverty of imagination.

    It would be nice to use DNS as a nodelist lookup
    mechanism, regardless of the original intent.

    There is no reason why it can't be expanded as long as you meet FTS-5004. I offer email <-> netmail and add the needed MX,SPF,DMARC,etc entries for all nodes which is over and above 5004, although I am not sure what good a node that is dial-up only would offer having a DNS record. As it stands, if you
    are reachable via the internet then you are processed via DNS.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Sun Feb 23 18:56:50 2020
    On 22 Feb 2020 at 07:12p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    That's the bit that's unfortunate. The whole thing
    suffers from a certain poverty of imagination.

    It would be nice to use DNS as a nodelist lookup
    mechanism, regardless of the original intent.

    There is no reason why it can't be expanded as long as you meet
    FTS-5004.

    That's kind of what I was driving at. :-)

    I offer email <-> netmail and add the needed MX,SPF,DMARC,etc
    entries for all nodes which is over and above 5004, although I am not
    sure what good a node that is dial-up only would offer having a DNS record. As it stands, if you are reachable via the internet then you are processed via DNS.

    The advantage, even with entries for dial-up only nodes,
    are several.

    First, you've got a single, consistent, scalable,
    hardened, extensively tested, Internet standard
    protocol for querying nodelist information. It
    is extremely well-specified and interoperable
    implementations exist for almost every conceivable
    platform. Even if the dialup node can't take
    advantage of it, other nodes _can_ to get
    information about the dialup node using the same
    mechanism they would use as for Internet connected
    nodes.

    Second, it solves many maintenance problems by
    design. Consider Fidonet; even as a shadow of its
    former self, keeping that nodelist up to date is
    still kind of hard. With a DNS-based solution,
    you could delegate maintenance of regions and nets
    to those coordinators, without a zone coordinator
    having to do a `makenl` run. By design, DNS spans
    organizational and administrative boundaries in
    a consistent way. People could be assigned a node
    and be up and running in minutes, rather than
    waiting for some dude with a DOS machine to run
    a batch file and then waiting for the results to
    be pushed everywhere....

    Finally, it solves the distribution and update
    problem. Nodes see updates as they happen, modulo
    TTLs on individual records. No need to "hatch"
    files across a network, no problems with new nodes
    not being recognized because other nodes haven't
    (yet) picked up an updated nodelist....

    In short, DNS for nodelists solves all of the
    same problems that DNS solved with respect to
    hosts.txt. The insight there that, even if
    every host on the Internet didn't support DNS
    it was useful for those that did, is the same.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to tenser on Sun Feb 23 01:07:50 2020
    The advantage, even with entries for dial-up only nodes,
    are several.

    You would need an entire generation of software that would need to catch up, and frankly thank ain't gonna happen.

    This was the reason the FTSC was created in the first place, to have a set of standards. That was when there was 20,000+ nodes in Fidonet, no email and no internet in general.

    I agree it could have it's advantages, like TXT entries for dial up nodes,
    but unless we can go back in time and update all of the software people use, there is no use.

    You could create your own FTN style network that would require this, but then you are shutting out anyone using software that isn't compatible. I
    personally would rather focus my time and energy on growing the hobby and
    keep what we have, it is a far cry from the 80s and 90s.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Sun Feb 23 20:34:11 2020
    On 22 Feb 2020 at 08:07p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    The advantage, even with entries for dial-up only nodes,
    are several.

    You would need an entire generation of software that would need to catch up, and frankly thank ain't gonna happen.

    That's a rather pessimistic view. :-(

    Prior to the early 2000s there was no binkp. It
    seems pretty ubiquitous now. Many of the standards
    on ftsc.org are from this century, though by no
    means all. Regardless, someone somewhere decided
    to come up with a new standard and it actually
    took off. I don't see any structural barrier to
    something like that happening again.

    This was the reason the FTSC was created in the first place, to have a
    set of standards. That was when there was 20,000+ nodes in Fidonet, no email and no internet in general.

    Hey? The Internet is older than Fidonet and email
    much older than that. Note I'm dating the Internet
    from the switch to TCP/IP; if you go from the
    beginning of the ARPANET in the last 60s then what
    we'd recognize as the "Internet" today is downright
    venerable compared to Fidonet.

    I agree it could have it's advantages, like TXT entries for dial up
    nodes, but unless we can go back in time and update all of the software people use, there is no use.

    Sorry, let me be clear: I'm not suggesting that
    one totally discard nodelist generation and
    distribution for legacy systems. I'm suggesting
    using DNS in lieu of a nodelist for sufficiently
    capable systems as a complement to the current
    way of doing things.

    If one took the DNS distributed data as the record
    of truth and generated the nodelist from that
    (instead of the other way around) you'd still reap
    many of the benefits of administrative decentralization
    while maintaining legacy compatibility.

    You could create your own FTN style network that would require this, but then you are shutting out anyone using software that isn't compatible. I personally would rather focus my time and energy on growing the hobby and keep what we have, it is a far cry from the 80s and 90s.

    Oh, I don't know about that. First, using DNS
    in the way I describe doesn't preclude generation
    of a nodelist text file for systems that don't do
    the DNS thing, so it's not like doing one somehow
    starves out the other.

    Second, one of the things that I, personally, am
    interested in is development of new software. I
    suspect there are other retro-enthusiasts out
    there who feel the same way out of a similar sense
    of nostalgia. Why discourage that? It seems like
    a fine way to grow the hobby to me, though I'm
    admittedly biased.

    I've spent a fair amount of time with a bunch of
    FTSC documents lately as I wrote my own binkp
    implementation and am writing my own FTN<->NNTP
    gateway software (binkd was too buggy and the
    upstream maintainer isn't terribly responsive;
    existing FTN<->NNTP gateways have bit rotted and
    are similarly buggy and have a poor story around
    latency). Anyway, I think there's significant
    room for improvement and innovation. It sounds
    fun. It sounds experimental. It might be
    much simpler in terms of implementation than
    what's out there now.

    Why not explore the space a little? If people
    just want to be into the art and running old
    code then there's certainly nothing wrong with
    that. I don't see how that means that others
    can't experiment with new implementation ideas,
    though.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Mon Feb 24 12:50:00 2020
    On 02-22-20 11:18, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    It will generate a SRV record for the protocol with the non standard
    port. I don't know if it will generate SRV records (with default ports) for the other protocols.

    I'm talking about the case where you have IBN,IFT:2121,ITN...

    It should only create SRV records when an non standard port is use on
    any flag beginning with the letter 'I' which identifies an internet capable transport method. Standard ports as to be assumed if you are flying an 'I' flag. If the node entry isn't flying an 'I' flag then
    they will not have a DNS entry. BinkD, Argus, etc all follow this standard. Look up 77:1/100@scinet-ftn.org, if it has an entry and no
    SRV record then try 24554, if there is a _binkp SRV record then use
    that port. The same would apply for software transferring via FTP: Is there a record for it, if so is there a SRV record, if not use port 21,
    if there is a _ftp SRV record then use that port, etc..

    That's what I thought, but AFACT, the script I have son't generate an A record if there's a non standard port and a hostname. Hence back to needing to generate the A and AAAA records manually for my system to cover protocols (like binkp) that use default ports. So your querying (pardon the pun) has brought this discussion full circle. :)


    ... Cereal Interface: Bowl, Milk, Sugar, Spoon.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 13:37:00 2020
    On 02-23-20 06:37, tenser wrote to Netsurge <=-

    In a way, this is kind of unfortunate. Part of the reason
    one might want to put all of the nodelist information into
    DNS zone is to avoid having to consult the nodelist text
    file at all. DNS is a reliable, distributed, replicated
    database with well-defined update properties.

    For me, DNS is a simple and logical place to put the nodelist for Internet connected systems. I do it, because it's the path of least resistance, even though not all software supports it, and I've found automation easy.

    For me, automation of routine tasks is critical for sustainability. I don't handle manual repetitive tasks well.

    Having all of the nodelist information available in DNS
    means that anyone on the Internet can extract relevant
    information without having to have an up-to-date copy of
    the nodelist, or a parser etc.

    Yep. :)


    ... DëjÇ Moo: the feeling you have heard this bull before.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 14:15:00 2020
    On 02-23-20 12:46, tenser wrote to Netsurge <=-

    On 22 Feb 2020 at 04:38p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    Having all of the nodelist information available in DNS
    means that anyone on the Internet can extract relevant
    information without having to have an up-to-date copy of
    the nodelist, or a parser etc.

    The idea of the FTSC spec was to have mailers be able to connect to a
    node directly, not to be used as a phone book. Software like BinkD
    follows the spec, if there is a packet marked crash and you don't have
    an entry for said node it will try to look it up.

    That's the bit that's unfortunate. The whole thing
    suffers from a certain poverty of imagination.

    It would be nice to use DNS as a nodelist lookup
    mechanism, regardless of the original intent.

    No reason we can't start a common practice that gets documented as a FTSC spec in the future. ;)


    ... If the good die young, I'll live forever!
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Mon Feb 24 14:20:00 2020
    On 02-22-20 19:12, Netsurge wrote to tenser <=-

    That's the bit that's unfortunate. The whole thing
    suffers from a certain poverty of imagination.

    It would be nice to use DNS as a nodelist lookup
    mechanism, regardless of the original intent.

    There is no reason why it can't be expanded as long as you meet
    FTS-5004. I offer email <-> netmail and add the needed MX,SPF,DMARC,etc entries for all nodes which is over and above 5004, although I am not
    sure what good a node that is dial-up only would offer having a DNS record. As it stands, if you are reachable via the internet then you
    are processed via DNS.

    Makes sense to me. As for dialup nodes, having them there, even if only with one or more TXT record(s) with their phone number and non Internet flags allows DNS to be used as a master copy of the nodelist. That would then make a lot of the Fidonet administrative infrastructure redundant, if the DNS was broken up in the right way (*C's could directly update their part of the nodelist in DNS, with appropriate delegations).


    ... The brain is as strong as its weakest think.
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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 14:23:00 2020
    On 02-23-20 13:56, tenser wrote to Netsurge <=-

    In short, DNS for nodelists solves all of the
    same problems that DNS solved with respect to
    hosts.txt. The insight there that, even if
    every host on the Internet didn't support DNS
    it was useful for those that did, is the same.

    We would still need a traditional nodelist for nodes running older software. It would be nice to be able to generate that from DNS information automatically at regular periods.


    ... Stay back! I have a modem and I know how to use it!
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    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 14:32:00 2020
    On 02-23-20 15:34, tenser wrote to Netsurge <=-

    Sorry, let me be clear: I'm not suggesting that
    one totally discard nodelist generation and
    distribution for legacy systems. I'm suggesting
    using DNS in lieu of a nodelist for sufficiently
    capable systems as a complement to the current
    way of doing things.

    I'm all for that. I like seeing progress and trying new ideas, and exploring what capabilities that brings.

    If one took the DNS distributed data as the record
    of truth and generated the nodelist from that
    (instead of the other way around) you'd still reap
    many of the benefits of administrative decentralization
    while maintaining legacy compatibility.

    Yep, I mentioned that in my previous message. I see having DNS as the authoritative nodelist with the text version generated from DNS data as a good way to go.

    Second, one of the things that I, personally, am
    interested in is development of new software. I
    suspect there are other retro-enthusiasts out
    there who feel the same way out of a similar sense
    of nostalgia. Why discourage that? It seems like
    a fine way to grow the hobby to me, though I'm
    admittedly biased.

    I like to see progress that allows an appropriate degree of backwards compatibility as the way to go. Those looking to the future can do so, while those who want to run "pure" legacy systes can do so and still join in the fun.

    I've spent a fair amount of time with a bunch of
    FTSC documents lately as I wrote my own binkp
    implementation and am writing my own FTN<->NNTP
    gateway software (binkd was too buggy and the
    upstream maintainer isn't terribly responsive;

    What's binkd got to do with NNTP? <confused look>

    existing FTN<->NNTP gateways have bit rotted and
    are similarly buggy and have a poor story around
    latency). Anyway, I think there's significant
    room for improvement and innovation. It sounds
    fun. It sounds experimental. It might be
    much simpler in terms of implementation than
    what's out there now.

    You might need to be a bit more specific in what you're trying to achieve. Synchronet can gate newsgroups, but Synchroner, AFICT, can't gate in a way that allows downstream systems to have their own Internet domain, in contrast to my old GIGO SMTP/NNTP gateway, which did generate addresses that were reachable via email (gated to netmail).

    Why not explore the space a little? If people
    just want to be into the art and running old
    code then there's certainly nothing wrong with
    that. I don't see how that means that others
    can't experiment with new implementation ideas,
    though.

    Yep, there's room for all to play in this santpit. :)


    ... Uh...excuse me...but your message made my spell checker barf!
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
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    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Mon Feb 24 17:46:30 2020
    On 24 Feb 2020 at 09:15a, Vk3jed pondered and said...

    No reason we can't start a common practice that gets documented as a
    FTSC spec in the future. ;)

    Indeed! That would be a goal. Or even superseding FTN
    entirely and coming up with new networking infrastructure.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Mon Feb 24 17:49:33 2020
    On 24 Feb 2020 at 09:32a, Vk3jed pondered and said...

    I like to see progress that allows an appropriate degree of backwards compatibility as the way to go. Those looking to the future can do so, while those who want to run "pure" legacy systes can do so and still
    join in the fun.

    Yes. For me, I think the way to go is to have a compatibility
    layer at the edge of my little network of cooperating hosts.
    I can provide a compatibility facade to things that care about
    that, but feel free to discard all the legacy burden inside.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Mon Feb 24 18:09:35 2020
    Argh. I meant to finish my earlier reply and hit the wrong button,
    sending it prematurely....

    On 24 Feb 2020 at 09:32a, Vk3jed pondered and said...

    I've spent a fair amount of time with a bunch of
    FTSC documents lately as I wrote my own binkp
    implementation and am writing my own FTN<->NNTP
    gateway software (binkd was too buggy and the
    upstream maintainer isn't terribly responsive;

    What's binkd got to do with NNTP? <confused look>

    Ah. Some explanation is in order....

    On my system, the messaging subsystem is based
    on an NNTP server. In order to participate in, say,
    fsxNet, I'd like to take FTN traffic and store it in
    the news server, and take responses posted via NNTP
    and gate them back to FTN. I thought this would be
    relatively straight forward to set up: I'd use binkd,
    fidogate, and INN. However, I've found binkd buggy
    and empirically observed that it crashes a lot, and
    fidogate has bit-rotted to the point of near
    uselessness. INN was the easiest to set up, though
    I used to run a USENET server back in the day and
    Rich $alz is a smart dude who left a lot of his legacy
    in it, so that's less surprising. Anyway....

    I fixed a few bugs in binkd, but this apparently
    caused problems for people trying to compile it for
    Windows 9x and OS/2; ongoing maintenance of that
    program will be a burden due to forced compatibility
    with legacy systems and the inability to take
    advantage of e.g. newer language features and
    libraries. Also, the upstream maintainer has been
    sitting on a pull request for a few weeks now with
    no response, so I'm fearful of successful collaboration
    going forward.

    Fidogate also doesn't seem like a great fit: the
    story for bidirectional gatewaying between news
    and FTN seems to be based on cronjobs and batching.
    There's nothing wrong with that per se, but it
    gives a poor story with respect to latency and I
    think one can do better with cooperating daemons
    that ping each other over a real IPC channel (like a
    Unix domain socket) to kick off processing. In
    the end, I decided that neither binkd nor fidogate
    is worth the effort to fix and maintain, so I
    started writing my own.

    You might need to be a bit more specific in what you're trying to
    achieve. Synchronet can gate newsgroups, but Synchroner, AFICT, can't
    gate in a way that allows downstream systems to have their own Internet domain, in contrast to my old GIGO SMTP/NNTP gateway, which did generate addresses that were reachable via email (gated to netmail).

    See above. I'm not using Synchronet though, or really
    any BBS package. The Fat Dragon is kind of weird in
    the sense that the system itself _is_ the BBS. In that
    way it's more of a public-access Unix system with
    emphasis on a specific application area (BBS-type "stuff")
    as opposed to a traditional BBS.

    Yep, there's room for all to play in this santpit. :)

    Sometimes with respect to time it feels like a bit of
    a tarpit, but hey. :-D

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 00:41:12 2020
    On my system, the messaging subsystem is based
    on an NNTP server. In order to participate in, say,
    fsxNet, I'd like to take FTN traffic and store it in
    the news server, and take responses posted via NNTP
    and gate them back to FTN. I thought this would be
    relatively straight forward to set up: I'd use binkd,
    fidogate, and INN. However, I've found binkd buggy
    and empirically observed that it crashes a lot, and
    fidogate has bit-rotted to the point of near
    uselessness. INN was the easiest to set up, though
    I used to run a USENET server back in the day and
    Rich $alz is a smart dude who left a lot of his legacy
    in it, so that's less surprising. Anyway....

    I have done a lot of work to bring fidogate back from it's near brink of
    death. I still have a few things here and there to fix. I've got the source here if you want it.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 17:37:00 2020
    On 02-24-20 12:46, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    On 24 Feb 2020 at 09:15a, Vk3jed pondered and said...

    No reason we can't start a common practice that gets documented as a
    FTSC spec in the future. ;)

    Indeed! That would be a goal. Or even superseding FTN
    entirely and coming up with new networking infrastructure.

    As long as it's capable of useful interoperability with FTN. :)


    ... What you can do to stop obscene phone calls: Don't make them!
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 17:39:00 2020
    On 02-24-20 12:49, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yes. For me, I think the way to go is to have a compatibility
    layer at the edge of my little network of cooperating hosts.
    I can provide a compatibility facade to things that care about
    that, but feel free to discard all the legacy burden inside.

    That's certainly a nice sounding option. I'd like to see how that looks, when the time comes.


    ... Just my opinion (but I'm right!).
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
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    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 17:46:00 2020
    On 02-24-20 13:09, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    What's binkd got to do with NNTP? <confused look>

    Ah. Some explanation is in order....

    Yep. ;)

    On my system, the messaging subsystem is based
    on an NNTP server. In order to participate in, say,
    fsxNet, I'd like to take FTN traffic and store it in
    the news server, and take responses posted via NNTP
    and gate them back to FTN. I thought this would be
    relatively straight forward to set up: I'd use binkd,
    fidogate, and INN. However, I've found binkd buggy
    and empirically observed that it crashes a lot, and

    Strange. I've found binkd works fairly well for the most part, but I am running on Linux, not Windows.

    fidogate has bit-rotted to the point of near

    Other than Synchronet, there seems no current solutions for gating NNTP to FTN that I'm really aware of. I used to run a GIGO gate back in the 90s, which worked well, and I could gate for whole FTNs and select BBSs at the same time, with the help of an external utility. :)


    uselessness. INN was the easiest to set up, though
    I used to run a USENET server back in the day and
    Rich $alz is a smart dude who left a lot of his legacy
    in it, so that's less surprising. Anyway....

    Yes, INN is still heavily used and actively maintained, so I would expect few issues there. :)

    Strange

    I fixed a few bugs in binkd, but this apparently
    caused problems for people trying to compile it for
    Windows 9x and OS/2; ongoing maintenance of that
    program will be a burden due to forced compatibility
    with legacy systems and the inability to take
    advantage of e.g. newer language features and
    libraries. Also, the upstream maintainer has been
    sitting on a pull request for a few weeks now with
    no response, so I'm fearful of successful collaboration
    going forward.

    Sounds like sooner or later, those legacy platforms will have to be dropped, or the project forked. :/

    Fidogate also doesn't seem like a great fit: the
    story for bidirectional gatewaying between news
    and FTN seems to be based on cronjobs and batching.
    There's nothing wrong with that per se, but it
    gives a poor story with respect to latency and I
    think one can do better with cooperating daemons
    that ping each other over a real IPC channel (like a
    Unix domain socket) to kick off processing. In
    the end, I decided that neither binkd nor fidogate
    is worth the effort to fix and maintain, so I
    started writing my own.

    Agree, we're in a more realtime world today, so newer methods make sense.

    See above. I'm not using Synchronet though, or really
    any BBS package. The Fat Dragon is kind of weird in
    the sense that the system itself _is_ the BBS. In that
    way it's more of a public-access Unix system with
    emphasis on a specific application area (BBS-type "stuff")
    as opposed to a traditional BBS.

    Interesting system. I can see where you're coming from. :)

    Yep, there's room for all to play in this santpit. :)

    Sometimes with respect to time it feels like a bit of
    a tarpit, but hey. :-D

    Hahaha. :D


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  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Mon Feb 24 20:09:23 2020
    On 23 Feb 2020 at 07:41p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    I have done a lot of work to bring fidogate back from it's near brink of death. I still have a few things here and there to fix. I've got the source here if you want it.

    Sure; I'd love to have a look at it. If nothing else,
    it's another reference on how some of the weirder corner
    cases are handled. Is your source out in the open
    somewhere? I combed github pretty thoroughly, but
    mostly came up short.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 02:17:48 2020
    Sure; I'd love to have a look at it. If nothing else,
    it's another reference on how some of the weirder corner
    cases are handled. Is your source out in the open
    somewhere? I combed github pretty thoroughly, but
    mostly came up short.

    No, it's on my private git lab server. I will send you the details.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Mon Feb 24 20:26:20 2020
    On 24 Feb 2020 at 12:46p, Vk3jed pondered and said...

    fidogate, and INN. However, I've found binkd buggy
    and empirically observed that it crashes a lot, and

    Strange. I've found binkd works fairly well for the most part, but I am running on Linux, not Windows.

    I'm not running on Windows either. I'm running OpenBSD
    (because: why not? Actually it's the closest to what I
    used to think of when I'd login to 4.3BSD on the VAX or
    4.4 on sun4c), and it's pretty strict with respect to
    things like memory safety. The "use-after-free" and "wrong-size-for-struct-sock_addr" bugs I fixed a month
    or two ago at least let it run well enough that it didn't
    immediate crash on startup, but the "infinite-loop-on-wrong-permissions-with-no-error-message"
    and random crashes in the **perl** interpreter (I suspect
    due to undetected memory corruption) were the last straws.
    25 kloc of bad C code did not leave me with a warm fuzzy...
    Granted, about half of that is compatibility for ancient
    systems, but still: 3.2 kloc just to drive a simple
    protocol? Nah, I'm good.

    Other than Synchronet, there seems no current solutions for gating NNTP
    to FTN that I'm really aware of. I used to run a GIGO gate back in the 90s, which worked well, and I could gate for whole FTNs and select BBSs
    at the same time, with the help of an external utility. :)

    Fidogate is still out there.... Avon sent me a copy of SoupGate,
    but I suspect writing a server that presents itself as a
    streaming NNTP server on one end and prepares packet bundles
    and pings the binkp server on the other shouldn't be _too_
    hard to whip up.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Mon Feb 24 20:26:40 2020
    On 23 Feb 2020 at 09:17p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    No, it's on my private git lab server. I will send you the details.

    Thanks!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Vk3jed on Mon Feb 24 20:11:00 2020

    FTN that I'm really aware of. I used to run a GIGO gate back in the

    Going to have to take another run at something like that myself, my last few retries on UFGATE haven't gotten me any closer to a result.

    Sounds like sooner or later, those legacy platforms will have to be dropped, or the project forked. :/

    Just stick a fork in it and call it done. :P

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Tue Feb 25 01:21:00 2020
    On 02-24-20 15:26, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    25 kloc of bad C code did not leave me with a warm fuzzy...
    Granted, about half of that is compatibility for ancient
    systems, but still: 3.2 kloc just to drive a simple
    protocol? Nah, I'm good.

    Hmm, that does sounds rather ugly. :/

    Fidogate is still out there.... Avon sent me a copy of SoupGate,

    I did say "current", as in actively maintained. ;)

    but I suspect writing a server that presents itself as a
    streaming NNTP server on one end and prepares packet bundles
    and pings the binkp server on the other shouldn't be _too_
    hard to whip up.

    Will be interesting to see what you come up with. Would also be good to have addressing that allows email-netmail gating as well.


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    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Spectre on Tue Feb 25 01:25:00 2020
    On 02-24-20 15:11, Spectre wrote to Vk3jed <=-


    FTN that I'm really aware of. I used to run a GIGO gate back in the

    Going to have to take another run at something like that myself, my
    last few retries on UFGATE haven't gotten me any closer to a result.

    I've still technically got a working GIGO setup, but it's on a virtual HDD that I was trying to resurrect my old point system on. That's what ran the GIGO gate.

    Sounds like sooner or later, those legacy platforms will have to be dropped, or the project forked. :/

    Just stick a fork in it and call it done. :P

    Hahaha. :D


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 12:07:00 2020
    tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    On my system, the messaging subsystem is based
    on an NNTP server. In order to participate in, say,
    fsxNet, I'd like to take FTN traffic and store it in
    the news server, and take responses posted via NNTP
    and gate them back to FTN. I thought this would be
    relatively straight forward to set up:

    I'm all for a challenge, but if you're looking for an easy solution, Synchronet supports NNTP and can gate between different net.types out of the box. You'd set up Synchronet as a leaf node of your NNTP server, connect FTN areas using newslink.js, and set the message areas to gate between message networks. Then you could feed your Mystic BBS from Synchronet.






    ... What do you think of the guests?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org (21:4/122)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Netsurge on Tue Feb 25 00:18:55 2020
    22 Feb 20 19:12, you wrote to tenser:

    That's the bit that's unfortunate. The whole thing
    suffers from a certain poverty of imagination.

    It would be nice to use DNS as a nodelist lookup
    mechanism, regardless of the original intent.

    There is no reason why it can't be expanded as long as you meet FTS-5004. I offer email <-> netmail and add the needed MX,SPF,DMARC,etc entries for all nodes which is over and above 5004, although I am not sure what good a node that is dial-up only would offer having a DNS record. As it stands, if you are reachable via the internet then you are processed via DNS.

    But there are also enough reasons to not do it. If we really want to do it the same way it is done in the Internet, we also could use SMTP, NNTP and get rid of the stupid zone, net and node numbers, binkp mailer, pkt tossers ... ;)

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Netsurge on Mon Feb 24 22:12:02 2020

    I agree it could have it's advantages, like TXT entries for dial up nodes, but unless we can go back in time and update all of the software people use, there is no use.

    You could create your own FTN style network that would require this, but then you are shutting out anyone using software that isn't compatible. I personally would rather focus my time and energy on growing the hobby and keep what we have, it is a far cry from the 80s and 90s.

    If I created my own FTN, I would disallow gateways, 5004 DNS and HTTP access to echomail.

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to tenser on Mon Feb 24 22:16:39 2020
    23 Feb 20 15:34, you wrote to Netsurge:

    I agree it could have it's advantages, like TXT entries for dial up
    nodes, but unless we can go back in time and update all of the software
    people use, there is no use.

    Sorry, let me be clear: I'm not suggesting that
    one totally discard nodelist generation and
    distribution for legacy systems. I'm suggesting
    using DNS in lieu of a nodelist for sufficiently
    capable systems as a complement to the current
    way of doing things.

    If one took the DNS distributed data as the record
    of truth and generated the nodelist from that
    (instead of the other way around) you'd still reap
    many of the benefits of administrative decentralization
    while maintaining legacy compatibility.

    But the cool thing about FTN is that it just needs a plaintext file to connect nodes. No domain registrations that cost money and make some people rich. DNS is already a good target for censorship and stuff is happening that is outside the control of the user (sysop).

    Yes, the decentralization thing is interesting, but there might be better solutions nowadays (distributed hash table, ...). I'm more interested in getting rid of the DNS dependency in FTN.

    You could create your own FTN style network that would require this, but
    then you are shutting out anyone using software that isn't compatible. I
    personally would rather focus my time and energy on growing the hobby and
    keep what we have, it is a far cry from the 80s and 90s.

    I've spent a fair amount of time with a bunch of
    FTSC documents lately as I wrote my own binkp
    implementation and am writing my own FTN<->NNTP
    gateway software (binkd was too buggy and the
    upstream maintainer isn't terribly responsive;
    existing FTN<->NNTP gateways have bit rotted and
    are similarly buggy and have a poor story around
    latency). Anyway, I think there's significant
    room for improvement and innovation. It sounds
    fun. It sounds experimental. It might be
    much simpler in terms of implementation than
    what's out there now.

    Nice :)

    Poor story around latency? Which software and latency are you talking about?

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 09:39:00 2020
    FTN that I'm really aware of. I used to run a GIGO gate back in the

    Going to have to take another run at something like that myself, my

    I've still technically got a working GIGO setup, but it's on a virtual HDD

    It seemed overly obstreporous when I looked at it in passing, maybe I should try this one again and see if you've got any pointers... Please Standby! :P

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Feb 25 13:38:28 2020
    On 24 Feb 2020 at 07:07a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    On my system, the messaging subsystem is based
    on an NNTP server. In order to participate in, say,
    fsxNet, I'd like to take FTN traffic and store it in
    the news server, and take responses posted via NNTP
    and gate them back to FTN. I thought this would be
    relatively straight forward to set up:

    I'm all for a challenge, but if you're looking for an easy solution, Synchronet supports NNTP and can gate between different net.types out of the box. You'd set up Synchronet as a leaf node of your NNTP server, connect FTN areas using newslink.js, and set the message areas to gate between message networks. Then you could feed your Mystic BBS from Synchronet.

    That might be a good first step. I definitely don't have a Mystic
    BBS anywhere, either, though. :-)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 01:19:00 2020

    That's the bit that's unfortunate. The whole thing
    suffers from a certain poverty of imagination.

    It would be nice to use DNS as a nodelist lookup
    mechanism, regardless of the original intent.

    No reason we can't start a common practice that gets documented as a FTSC
    spec
    in the future. ;)

    The FTSC is more or less dead ...

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to tenser on Tue Feb 25 01:25:43 2020

    Fidogate is still out there.... Avon sent me a copy of SoupGate,
    but I suspect writing a server that presents itself as a
    streaming NNTP server on one end and prepares packet bundles
    and pings the binkp server on the other shouldn't be _too_
    hard to whip up.

    Maybe easier than fixing or improving software that hasn't been maintained for years ... :)

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Oli on Tue Feb 25 14:09:32 2020
    On 24 Feb 2020 at 07:18p, Oli pondered and said...

    There is no reason why it can't be expanded as long as you meet FTS-5

    But there are also enough reasons to not do it.

    What are the reasons NOT to do it? I'm honestly curious.

    If we really want to do
    it the same way it is done in the Internet, we also could use SMTP, NNTP and get rid of the stupid zone, net and node numbers, binkp mailer, pkt tossers ... ;)

    It's funny you mention that....

    I've spent a fair amount of time with FTS packet and header
    standards and binkp etc. As near as I can tell, Fido-style
    networking works mostly by accident, and the Internet really
    is strictly better. Take binkp as an example; it's big
    selling point is supposed to be pipelining over high-latency
    links (binkp/1.0 only has one synchronization point). But
    then they added NR mode, which potentially adds a synchronization
    point after every M_FILE frame, totally negating the benefit.
    Compare with streaming NNTP, which you offer a series of
    articles to a peer, and then the peer just tells you which
    ones it wants, and you stream those over. There's a little
    more back-and-forth, but it's windowed and amortized over
    several messages.

    Another issue, Fidonet packets aren't end-to-end. If you
    want to tease out the actual source node of the messages in
    an FTN packet, you've got to apply heuristics to the contents
    and look for a MSGID kludge or an "Origin" line, neither of
    which is required. Why? Because your hub overwrites the
    origin and destination addresses in the message header with
    its and your addresses, respectively. Yikes. And since the
    PATH line and MSGIDs aren't mandatory, you end up with O(n)
    SEEN-BY lines, driven by how many node addresses you can fit
    on a line. The patchwork of places data appears in headers,
    whether FTS-0001.16, FSC-0039.004, FSC-0045.001, or
    FSC-0048.002 stems from using a fixed-format binary header
    instead of text. I get that people wanted to economize on
    size back in the days of 1200 BAUD modems and big phone bills,
    but dang.... We did that on the Internet, too, and still had
    formats that extended rather more gracefully than FTN.

    And then the semantics of FTN addresses are really tied to
    a notion of _geographical_ topology of the network dating
    from the dialup era, and conflate naming and addressing.

    At this point, from a pure technology perspective, I see
    no advantage whatsoever to using binkp instead of HTTP and
    I see no advantage to the legacy formats instead of a
    text-based structured format. It doesn't have to be RFC1036,
    but something like JSON as a message interchange would have
    eliminated so many problems (and since it's text, I'd wager
    it'd compress down pretty well). Of course it didn't exist
    in the 80s and 90s, and that's fine, I'm not trying to
    suggest people back there should have been fortune tellers
    who foresaw the benefits of structured formats, but whereas
    binkp showed up in the 21st century, nothing else did.

    I get people want compatibility with the old stuff, so I
    don't expect these things to change, but yeah, a lot of the
    legacy _could_ be discarded if appropriate conversion layers
    were put into place for the legacy systems.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Oli on Tue Feb 25 14:17:43 2020
    On 24 Feb 2020 at 05:16p, Oli pondered and said...

    Poor story around latency? Which software and latency are you talking about?

    I'm talking about fidogate. The general approach seems
    "generate a bunch of files, put them in a directory, then
    wait for a cron job to walk that directory and do something
    with those files."

    `binkd` can be configured to run a command when it receives
    a packet, and it may be possible to configure `fidogate` to
    do similarly after it's done its toss run or whatever.
    While there's obviously some overhead to fork/exec'ing those
    processing programs, that's not so bad: the bigger problem
    is in the return path. If news dumps a batch somewhere, and
    that gets converted into a packet, you've still got to wait
    for binkp to get around to polling its outbound directory
    before the packet is uploaded to the "boss" node; latency may
    be on the order of minutes.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Tenser on Mon Feb 24 21:58:56 2020
    On 25 Feb 20 09:09:32, Tenser said the following to Oli:

    There is no reason why it can't be expanded as long as you meet FT

    But there are also enough reasons to not do it.

    What are the reasons NOT to do it? I'm honestly curious.

    Fidonet is mostly a dead-end, innovation-wise. Your apparent skillset and talents are likely better spent introducing new technologies in Othernets
    where the level of participation and enthusiasm by others is more shared and welcome. In some regions like Russia, Fido is extremely popular but its mostly just grunt Sysops left... old retired burly bastards from the mainframe days.

    I am speaking as a Fido developer and ZC1. Talent in that network is overshadowed by network politics, especially by a policy document that is quickly recited like the Christian bible by those with axes to grind, past actions by Napoleon ZC's/RC's/NC's etc. And the irrational "zone wars".

    If there is such tremendous difficulty in getting one freaking word changed in that policy document that has not changed since 1989, difficulty getting everyone necessary to agree that it needs to be updated, now you hopefully see why Fido is mostly duct-taped together.

    There is nothing stopping you or anyone from introducing a new technology, but it has to play nice with existing systems and you must be prepared to deal with inevitable flaming... if you are persistent and your idea takes off, and you keep your middle-finger raised in some respects, your idea can become a Fidonet standard.

    The FTSC only documents current practice. It does not enforce it.

    I am happy to discuss this via Netmail or email, out of respect for Avon I don't really want to carry on Fido-related nonsense here.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Spectre on Tue Feb 25 13:40:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 04:39, Spectre wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    FTN that I'm really aware of. I used to run a GIGO gate back in the

    Going to have to take another run at something like that myself, my

    I've still technically got a working GIGO setup, but it's on a virtual HDD

    It seemed overly obstreporous when I looked at it in passing, maybe I should try this one again and see if you've got any pointers... Please Standby! :P

    Well, if necessary, I can try and fish out my old gigo.conf, which was fairly comprehensive. :)


    ... Fotoflagellation - The act of waving a Polaroid so it develops faster.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Oli on Tue Feb 25 13:42:00 2020
    On 02-24-20 20:19, Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-


    That's the bit that's unfortunate. The whole thing
    suffers from a certain poverty of imagination.

    It would be nice to use DNS as a nodelist lookup
    mechanism, regardless of the original intent.

    No reason we can't start a common practice that gets documented as a FTSC
    spec
    in the future. ;)

    The FTSC is more or less dead ...

    I believe we have one member of the FTSC in here, who may beg to differ. ;)


    ... My middle name is "Maytag". That's cuz I'm an agitator ;*)
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Vk3Jed on Mon Feb 24 22:27:51 2020
    On 25 Feb 20 08:42:00, Vk3Jed said the following to Oli:

    The FTSC is more or less dead ...

    I believe we have one member of the FTSC in here, who may beg to differ. ;)

    Actually, sadly this is mostly correct. There are no longer an abundance of proposals being discussed by developers that the FTSC needs to catalog as proposal or standard. There are very few FTN products being actively developed anymore. BinkD was really the last "protocol" that was accepted as standard.

    With nothing new to catalog or document and very few experienced FTN developers remaining, whats really left for the FTSC is just librarian/historian/grammar-police type of work. A change to the language
    of some documents to clarify things. Some guy volunteered to keep the ftsc.org domain and documents available. Thats really what remains of the FTSC.

    It is also more or less become a laughing-stock to some, when the FTSC
    began electing people who are not technically competent to understand the documents discussed. The last idea brought up by Ozz Nixon to document a "starter path" for a developer to at least get an idea which documents are current standard was met with a large flame-war over some stupid nodelist entry. His idea would of at least helped a newcomer developer get started.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Atreyu on Mon Feb 24 22:56:54 2020
    I am happy to discuss this via Netmail or email, out of respect for Avon
    I don't really want to carry on Fido-related nonsense here.

    May the Z1C and RC12 burn for their participation in Fidonet. Long live othernets!

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Atreyu on Tue Feb 25 15:56:00 2020
    On 02-24-20 17:27, Atreyu wrote to Vk3Jed <=-

    Actually, sadly this is mostly correct. There are no longer an
    abundance of proposals being discussed by developers that the FTSC
    needs to catalog as proposal or standard. There are very few FTN
    products being actively developed anymore. BinkD was really the last "protocol" that was accepted as standard.

    Yeah some good points there, but again, the flip side is perhaps we as a community need to give the FTSC new stuff to catalogue. :)


    ... The only good government.is a bad one in a hell of a fright.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Netsurge on Tue Feb 25 00:31:02 2020
    On 24 Feb 20 17:56:54, Netsurge said the following to Atreyu:

    I am happy to discuss this via Netmail or email, out of respect for Avo I don't really want to carry on Fido-related nonsense here.

    May the Z1C and RC12 burn for their participation in Fidonet. Long live othernets!

    Bah. I don't have to take your abuse. I'm going to the FSX_PRO_AUDIO area.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Atreyu on Tue Feb 25 19:46:50 2020
    On 24 Feb 2020 at 04:58p, Atreyu pondered and said...

    I am happy to discuss this via Netmail or email, out of respect for Avon
    I don't really want to carry on Fido-related nonsense here.

    Sure! Drop me a note at cross@fat-dragon.org. Thanks!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 19:58:13 2020
    On 25 Feb 2020 at 10:56a, Vk3jed pondered and said...

    Yeah some good points there, but again, the flip side is perhaps we as a community need to give the FTSC new stuff to catalogue. :)

    Some number of years ago, over on grex.org, we had
    something of an existential crisis. The people who
    had started the system were drifting away, but still
    wanted to maintain significant control over the
    system and the direction we took it in. There were
    lots of tedious flame wars and it was frustrating
    all around.

    I was on the BoD at the time, and had a conversation
    with someone who finally said to me, "Just do what
    you want. They're not going to follow through on
    what they've been talking about doing for the last
    10 years, so take Grex and make it what you want it
    to be." It was a real revelation to me. The next
    day, we started making changes and while there was
    a small bit of grumbling, it just didn't matter.
    The community changed and now it's actually decently
    healthy.

    I see the situation on fight-o-net similarly; who
    cares what the FTSC does or doesn't do? For that
    matter, who cares what the Fidonet *Cs say about,
    well, anything? It's the same four or five bitter
    guys saying the same stuff and hashing out the same
    stupid arguments over and over again, like they
    have been for decades now. Maybe that mattered
    (for small values of mattering) back in the day
    when there was more than a few hundred systems on
    Fidonet, but those days are long gone and just
    aren't coming back. So F 'em. Salvage what
    you can out of the technology and make these networks
    what you want them to be.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From apam@21:1/126 to tenser on Tue Feb 25 17:11:00 2020
    aren't coming back. So F 'em. Salvage what
    you can out of the technology and make these networks
    what you want them to be.

    I agree with this, I don't think anyone needs to care what FTSC want
    unless you want your software to run on fidonet. This isn't fidonet,
    network x isn't fidonet.. the problem I see is interoperability, if one
    starts network x with technology y, then it will be limited to who
    supports technology y. if you can keep the old compatible, that's good,
    but then the new stuff is kind of pointless unless people move to
    implement it. You then have individuals who work on different projects
    having to work together to implement technology y, and agree on
    standards for technology y, and maybe then you get FTSC 2.0

    I say, be a trailblazer. Implement new stuff and let the rest catch up.
    If it's worth while and not to complex etc, they will.

    Andrew

    PS, how come your messages are narrow? (not 80chars) I notice your
    posting on agency, is it some offline mail messager? It's not a problem,
    looks quiet neat, just curious what you're using.

    --- MagickaBBS v0.13alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: HappyLand - telnet://magickabbs.com:2023/ (21:1/126)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Tue Feb 25 18:20:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 14:58, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I see the situation on fight-o-net similarly; who
    cares what the FTSC does or doesn't do? For that
    matter, who cares what the Fidonet *Cs say about,
    well, anything? It's the same four or five bitter
    guys saying the same stuff and hashing out the same
    stupid arguments over and over again, like they
    have been for decades now. Maybe that mattered
    (for small values of mattering) back in the day
    when there was more than a few hundred systems on
    Fidonet, but those days are long gone and just
    aren't coming back. So F 'em. Salvage what
    you can out of the technology and make these networks
    what you want them to be.

    But given that FTSC's role has typically been to document existing practice, everything points to working on progressing the hobby. If they want to, they'll document what you're doing. If not, who cares? :)

    And if Fidonet doesn't follow our lead, their loss, again, who cares? :)


    ... There are always alternatives. Spock, The Galileo Seven, stardate 2822.3. === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to apam on Tue Feb 25 20:35:52 2020
    On 25 Feb 2020 at 12:11p, apam pondered and said...

    I agree with this, I don't think anyone needs to care what FTSC want unless you want your software to run on fidonet. This isn't fidonet, network x isn't fidonet.. the problem I see is interoperability, if one starts network x with technology y, then it will be limited to who supports technology y. if you can keep the old compatible, that's good, but then the new stuff is kind of pointless unless people move to implement it. You then have individuals who work on different projects having to work together to implement technology y, and agree on
    standards for technology y, and maybe then you get FTSC 2.0

    Thanks. That captures it nicely.

    I say, be a trailblazer. Implement new stuff and let the rest catch up.
    If it's worth while and not to complex etc, they will.

    Who's with us??

    PS, how come your messages are narrow? (not 80chars) I notice your
    posting on agency, is it some offline mail messager? It's not a problem, looks quiet neat, just curious what you're using.

    Oh, I am just used to hitting <enter> manually.
    I'm just using the default interface. There's
    no real reason other than force of habit....

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 20:38:15 2020
    On 25 Feb 2020 at 01:20p, Vk3jed pondered and said...

    But given that FTSC's role has typically been to document existing practice, everything points to working on progressing the hobby. If
    they want to, they'll document what you're doing. If not, who cares? :)

    And if Fidonet doesn't follow our lead, their loss, again, who cares? :)

    Precisely! Look, suppose we collectively come up
    with a new inter-BBS networking initiative and it
    ends up being neat. Suppose the FTSC comes in and
    says, "hey, this is neat, we'd like to document
    it..." then the answer (from my perspective) would
    be, "sure. Have at at." But by the same time, I
    wouldn't feel compelled to be beholden to them.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Tenser on Tue Feb 25 03:02:01 2020
    On 25 Feb 20 14:46:50, Tenser said the following to Atreyu:

    I am happy to discuss this via Netmail or email, out of respect for Avo I don't really want to carry on Fido-related nonsense here.

    Sure! Drop me a note at cross@fat-dragon.org. Thanks!

    Email sent.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 03:08:00 2020
    And if Fidonet doesn't follow our lead, their loss, again, who cares? :)

    Fidonet follow a lead, bahaha. That circle jerk will do nothing but bitch and complain while 50 and 60 year old men eat nacho chips in their underwear at their moms house.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to tenser on Tue Feb 25 17:20:00 2020
    At this point, from a pure technology perspective, I see no advantage whatsoever to using binkp instead of HTTP and I see no advantage
    to the legacy formats instead of a text-based structured format.
    It doesn't have to be RFC1036, but something like JSON as a message interchange would have eliminated so many problems (and since it's
    text, I'd wager it'd compress down pretty well). Of course it didn't
    exist in the 80s and 90s, and that's fine, I'm not trying to suggest people back there should have been fortune tellers who foresaw
    the benefits of structured formats, but whereas binkp showed up in
    the 21st century, nothing else did.


    Well so long as I can keep picking up echos with FD and tossing PKT's I'll be happy :) I'm pretty low on the experimental side of things....

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)
  • From alter ego@21:2/116 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 22:40:58 2020
    Re: Re: Netmail
    By: Vk3jed to Oli on Tue Feb 25 2020 08:42 am

    I believe we have one member of the FTSC in here, who may beg to differ. ;)

    I believe that is my queue to say something ...

    "Something" :)

    Actually, I cant say anything, otherwise I have to shoot you after saying it. ...deon


    ... Monogamy leaves a lot to be desired.
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (21:2/116)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 23:04:00 2020
    Yeah some good points there, but again, the flip side is perhaps we as a community need to give the FTSC new stuff to catalogue. :)

    Isn't FTSC just an extension of fighto net? To be honest, I've never had much to do with 'em but I don't ever recall anyone paying an awful lot of
    attention to them either

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to tenser on Wed Feb 26 02:28:58 2020
    On 25 Feb 2020 at 03:35p, tenser pondered and said...

    On 25 Feb 2020 at 12:11p, apam pondered and said...

    I agree with this, I don't think anyone needs to care what FTSC want unless you want your software to run on fidonet. This isn't fidonet, network x isn't fidonet.. the problem I see is interoperability, if o starts network x with technology y, then it will be limited to who supports technology y. if you can keep the old compatible, that's goo but then the new stuff is kind of pointless unless people move to implement it. You then have individuals who work on different project having to work together to implement technology y, and agree on standards for technology y, and maybe then you get FTSC 2.0

    Thanks. That captures it nicely.

    Agreed.


    I say, be a trailblazer. Implement new stuff and let the rest catch u If it's worth while and not to complex etc, they will.

    Who's with us??

    I'm always interested in new ideas. Disclaimer: I can't really code but I can hum a good 80s tune, poke at config files and make coffee :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 15:13:41 2020
    25 Feb 20 08:42, you wrote to me:

    No reason we can't start a common practice that gets documented as a FTSC
    spec
    in the future. ;)

    The FTSC is more or less dead ...

    I believe we have one member of the FTSC in here, who may beg to differ.
    ;)

    We have 5 FTSC members in the FSXNET nodelist ...

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 15:32:41 2020
    25 Feb 20 10:56, you wrote to Atreyu:

    On 02-24-20 17:27, Atreyu wrote to Vk3Jed <=-

    Actually, sadly this is mostly correct. There are no longer an
    abundance of proposals being discussed by developers that the FTSC
    needs to catalog as proposal or standard. There are very few FTN
    products being actively developed anymore. BinkD was really the last
    "protocol" that was accepted as standard.

    Yeah some good points there, but again, the flip side is perhaps we as a community need to give the FTSC new stuff to catalogue. :)

    But software developers already are unable to keep up with the existing standards and some of them
    are FTSC members. Missing REPLY kludges, slow binkp implementations, bugs, and I'm not talking
    about tossers that fuck up formatting for in-transit echomail ...

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to tenser on Tue Feb 25 17:46:32 2020
    On 25 Feb 2020 at 10:56a, Vk3jed pondered and said...

    Yeah some good points there, but again, the flip side is perhaps we as a
    community need to give the FTSC new stuff to catalogue. :)

    Some number of years ago, over on grex.org, we had
    something of an existential crisis. The people who
    had started the system were drifting away, but still
    wanted to maintain significant control over the
    system and the direction we took it in. There were
    lots of tedious flame wars and it was frustrating
    all around.

    I was on the BoD at the time, and had a conversation
    with someone who finally said to me, "Just do what
    you want. They're not going to follow through on
    what they've been talking about doing for the last
    10 years, so take Grex and make it what you want it
    to be." It was a real revelation to me. The next
    day, we started making changes and while there was
    a small bit of grumbling, it just didn't matter.
    The community changed and now it's actually decently
    healthy.

    I see the situation on fight-o-net similarly; who
    cares what the FTSC does or doesn't do? For that
    matter, who cares what the Fidonet *Cs say about,
    well, anything? It's the same four or five bitter
    guys saying the same stuff and hashing out the same
    stupid arguments over and over again, like they
    have been for decades now. Maybe that mattered
    (for small values of mattering) back in the day
    when there was more than a few hundred systems on
    Fidonet, but those days are long gone and just
    aren't coming back. So F 'em. Salvage what
    you can out of the technology and make these networks
    what you want them to be.

    I find that simply ignoring Fidonet, FTCS and the old farts fighting each other
    makes it all go away pretty fast.


    --- NiKom v2.5.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (21:2/130.0)
  • From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to Spectre on Tue Feb 25 17:48:33 2020
    Yeah some good points there, but again, the flip side is perhaps we as a
    community need to give the FTSC new stuff to catalogue. :)

    Isn't FTSC just an extension of fighto net? To be honest, I've never
    had much
    to do with 'em but I don't ever recall anyone paying an awful lot of attention to them either

    Spec

    It stands for Fidonet Technical Standards Committee if memory serves. It's the standards body that all FTN technology come from / is approved by. In other words, we can safely ignore it and build whatever the hell we want if we feel like it.


    --- NiKom v2.5.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (21:2/130.0)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Joacim Melin on Tue Feb 25 13:37:38 2020
    On 25 Feb 20 12:48:33, Joacim Melin said the following to Spectre:

    It stands for Fidonet Technical Standards Committee if memory serves. It's standards body that all FTN technology come from / is approved by. In othe words, we can safely ignore it and build whatever the hell we want if we fe like it.

    While you are correct, the FTSC is just a paper tiger. It does not invent any standards; merely documents them.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 26 07:50:08 2020
    On 24 Feb 2020 at 10:08p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    Fidonet follow a lead, bahaha. That circle jerk will do nothing but
    bitch and complain while 50 and 60 year old men eat nacho chips in their underwear at their moms house.

    Well that's an image I won't be able to squegee out
    of my brain any time soon...

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Oli on Wed Feb 26 08:18:39 2020
    On 24 Feb 2020 at 05:16p, Oli pondered and said...

    If one took the DNS distributed data as the record
    of truth and generated the nodelist from that
    (instead of the other way around) you'd still reap
    many of the benefits of administrative decentralization
    while maintaining legacy compatibility.

    But the cool thing about FTN is that it just needs a plaintext file to connect nodes. No domain registrations that cost money and make some people rich. DNS is already a good target for censorship and stuff is happening that is outside the control of the user (sysop).

    Note: in what follows I'm going to mention Fidonet
    specifically, but it _could_ apply to any FTN-style
    network.

    I don't buy that argument.

    Frankly, Fidonet has depended on the Internet for
    years. Bush's 1993 CACM article describes how the
    North America<->Europe link was gated over the
    Internet since late 1991: "This saves FidoNet
    operators thousands of dollars a month." https://archive.psg.com/930000.fidonet-acm.pdf

    Fidonet has been piggy-backing off of the Internet
    for almost 30 years, and at this point, for all
    intents and purposes, FTN-style networks _and_ BBSes
    as a whole are mostly applications running on the
    Internet. Yes yes, there might be a few people
    clinging to dialup someplace, but in general that's
    just not the case anymore.

    So in order to participate in any FTN-style network,
    at this point, you're practically obliged to have
    Internet access, for which you're already paying.
    The cost of a domain registration amortized over a
    year is pennies per day.

    The reality is that without the Internet, Fidonet
    would be completely, not just mostly, dead. I don't
    see any serious reason why it shouldn't use more
    Internet standards and technology.

    As for censorship in the DNS, I don't buy it, either.

    My own sense is that Fidonet in particular has been
    a bastion of censorship for decades, and we see both
    vestiges of this in behavior, and the technology makes
    it particular susceptible to the whims of individuals:
    the whole nodelist thing is ultimately dependent on the
    good will of a few individuals (the people who prepare
    and distribute the nodelist). If one of them decides
    they don't like you? They simply remove your entry.
    For Fidonet in particular, I've heard horror stories about
    people trying to get node numbers and it taking months; in
    a way this is a form of censhorship. Simply put, these are
    all things outside of the system operator's control. The
    same argument you're making against DNS already applies to
    FTN and nodelists.

    By distributing things over DNS, those issues are
    entirely sidestepped. Administrative decentralization
    is baked into the protocol by design and prevents one
    person at the top from shutting off a particular
    individual unless they're willing to take out an
    entire administrative domain.

    Not to mention the problems with the preparation,
    maintenance and distribution of that text file.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Joacim Melin on Wed Feb 26 08:31:11 2020
    On 25 Feb 2020 at 12:46p, Joacim Melin pondered and said...

    I find that simply ignoring Fidonet, FTCS and the old farts fighting
    each other makes it all go away pretty fast.

    That's certainly true. FTSC is mostly relevant as a
    repository of documents that describe the systems people
    currently using.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to tenser on Tue Feb 25 15:25:43 2020
    Frankly, Fidonet has depended on the Internet for
    years. Bush's 1993 CACM article describes how the
    North America<->Europe link was gated over the
    Internet since late 1991: "This saves FidoNet
    operators thousands of dollars a month." https://archive.psg.com/930000.fidonet-acm.pdf

    That is so. I haven't had a modem in 20 years now. Do they still
    manufacture modems today? I doubt it.

    If I'm going to have a BBS or node online the internet is really the only option, there's nothing to think about.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to tenser on Tue Feb 25 15:37:35 2020
    I find that simply ignoring Fidonet, FTCS and the old farts
    fighting each other makes it all go away pretty fast.

    That's certainly true. FTSC is mostly relevant as a
    repository of documents that describe the systems people
    currently using.

    The FTSC is really only relevant if those docs are up to date and contain
    good information for the masses, and especially for developers who are implementing these standards in their products.

    I'm not sure if that's the case or not. As things evolve and change the
    FTSC should be documenting that as well, at least where that is
    appropriate.

    8x3 file names made perfect sense in 1989 but not so much in 2020. If we
    could leave things like that behind and work with today's realities it
    would be much easier to move forward.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Al on Tue Feb 25 20:59:16 2020
    That is so. I haven't had a modem in 20 years now. Do they still manufacture modems today? I doubt it.

    They absolutely still make modems. I just refreshed all of the ones we have connected to our core routers and mpls routers. If our MPLS goes down or a
    bad config is applied the only option is to dial into the routers albeit via POTS or cellular.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Al on Tue Feb 25 21:02:58 2020
    8x3 file names made perfect sense in 1989 but not so much in 2020. If we could leave things like that behind and work with today's realities it would be much easier to move forward.

    If you want maximum compatibility then you have to cater to the lowest denominator. I am a top tier filegate hub and there are plenty of people
    still running older tic processors which only support 8.3.

    It is great to innovate and come up with new ways of doing things, but with a hobby that is well into it's death throws, locking out people because you
    won't support 8.3 files is only going to put the last nail in the coffin.

    After all, it isn't like people are beating down the door to sign up to bbses or to create their own and join a message network.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Netsurge on Tue Feb 25 18:08:00 2020
    Re: Re: Netmail
    By: Netsurge to Al on Tue Feb 25 2020 03:59 pm

    That is so. I haven't had a modem in 20 years now. Do they still
    manufacture modems today? I doubt it.

    They absolutely still make modems. I just refreshed all of the ones we have connected to our core routers and mpls routers. If our MPLS goes down or a bad config is applied the only option is to dial into the routers albeit via POTS or cellular.

    I think there are multiple interpretations of "modem" these days. I see that they do still make dialup modems, but these days, "modem" could also refer to a
    modem for cable, DSL, fiber-optic, etc. for broadband internet.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to Netsurge on Tue Feb 25 18:17:17 2020
    8x3 file names made perfect sense in 1989 but not so much in
    2020. If we could leave things like that behind and work with
    today's realities it would be much easier to move forward.

    If you want maximum compatibility then you have to cater to the
    lowest denominator. I am a top tier filegate hub and there are
    plenty of people still running older tic processors which only
    support 8.3.

    My own hatchings follow the 8x3 standard. By design or policy.. I'm not
    sure.

    Those things (tics and the like) were designed that way in a different
    place and time for that time.

    That's where we came from, not where we are going.

    There is a fullname keyword that tics can use so we can have our cake and
    eat it too.. if we want to.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 26 16:09:20 2020
    On 25 Feb 2020 at 04:02p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    If you want maximum compatibility then you have to cater to the lowest denominator. I am a top tier filegate hub and there are plenty of people still running older tic processors which only support 8.3.

    It is great to innovate and come up with new ways of doing things, but with a hobby that is well into it's death throws, locking out people because you won't support 8.3 files is only going to put the last nail
    in the coffin.

    _A_ way to work around this is to shunt a compatibility
    layer off to the edge of the network and configure legacy
    clients to use that, while everyone else gets to use the
    new stuff.

    Compatibility with 8.3 shouldn't be a concern on network
    backbones, for example; but each hub serve legacy clients
    that require 8.3 by exposing a service that dynamically
    translates longer file names into 8.3 or something like
    that.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Wed Feb 26 13:46:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 15:38, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Precisely! Look, suppose we collectively come up
    with a new inter-BBS networking initiative and it
    ends up being neat. Suppose the FTSC comes in and
    says, "hey, this is neat, we'd like to document
    it..." then the answer (from my perspective) would
    be, "sure. Have at at." But by the same time, I
    wouldn't feel compelled to be beholden to them.

    Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking. :)


    ... I will defend to your death my right to my opinion.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 26 13:48:00 2020
    On 02-24-20 22:08, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    And if Fidonet doesn't follow our lead, their loss, again, who cares? :)

    Fidonet follow a lead, bahaha. That circle jerk will do nothing but
    bitch and complain while 50 and 60 year old men eat nacho chips in
    their underwear at their moms house.

    Haha, well, that's their loss. :P Yes, I am on Fidonet, but I'm only an ordinary node, which is probably what I'll stay as for as long as I'm in Fidonet. :)


    ... I didn't like my beard at first, but it grew on me...
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to alter ego on Wed Feb 26 13:52:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 17:40, alter ego wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Re: Re: Netmail
    By: Vk3jed to Oli on Tue Feb 25 2020 08:42 am

    I believe we have one member of the FTSC in here, who may beg to differ. ;)

    I believe that is my queue to say something ...

    "Something" :)

    Actually, I cant say anything, otherwise I have to shoot you after
    saying it. ...deon

    ^^^^^^

    You just did, so go shoot yourself. :P :D

    ... Monogamy leaves a lot to be desired.

    True. ;)


    ... Overflow on /dev/null, please empty the bit bucket.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Spectre on Wed Feb 26 13:54:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 18:04, Spectre wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yeah some good points there, but again, the flip side is perhaps we as a community need to give the FTSC new stuff to catalogue. :)

    Isn't FTSC just an extension of fighto net? To be honest, I've never
    had much to do with 'em but I don't ever recall anyone paying an awful
    lot of attention to them either

    It is a part of it, but if they want to document what we do, all the better, because documentation is good. :)


    ... Ethernet (n): Something used to catch the etherbunny.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Oli on Wed Feb 26 14:06:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 10:13, Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    25 Feb 20 08:42, you wrote to me:

    No reason we can't start a common practice that gets documented as a FTSC
    spec
    in the future. ;)

    The FTSC is more or less dead ...

    I believe we have one member of the FTSC in here, who may beg to differ.
    ;)

    We have 5 FTSC members in the FSXNET nodelist ...

    Pretty good attendance. :D


    ... Given my druthers, I'd druther not.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Oli on Wed Feb 26 14:08:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 10:32, Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    But software developers already are unable to keep up with the existing standards and some of them
    are FTSC members. Missing REPLY kludges, slow binkp implementations,
    bugs, and I'm not talking
    about tossers that fuck up formatting for in-transit echomail ...

    That problem is not limited to FTN! Software that doesn't adhere to standards has been a problem everywhere. IOW, something, while we want to minimise, we can't afford to get hung up on it, or nothing will happen. :)


    ... Mashed potatoes with skim milk is like a sports car with an automatic.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Atreyu on Wed Feb 26 14:23:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 08:37, Atreyu wrote to Joacim Melin <=-

    On 25 Feb 20 12:48:33, Joacim Melin said the following to Spectre:

    It stands for Fidonet Technical Standards Committee if memory serves. It's standards body that all FTN technology come from / is approved by. In
    the
    words, we can safely ignore it and build whatever the hell we want if we
    e
    like it.

    While you are correct, the FTSC is just a paper tiger. It does not
    invent any standards; merely documents them.

    That is my understanding - they don't create the standards, but document what's in common use, so others can implement them.


    ... Apathy Error: Strike any key...or none, for that matter.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Wed Feb 26 14:30:00 2020
    On 02-26-20 03:18, tenser wrote to Oli <=-

    Frankly, Fidonet has depended on the Internet for
    years. Bush's 1993 CACM article describes how the
    North America<->Europe link was gated over the
    Internet since late 1991: "This saves FidoNet
    operators thousands of dollars a month." https://archive.psg.com/930000.fidonet-acm.pdf

    A lot more recent in other parts of the world - telnet BBS experimentation didn't start in Australia until the very late 90s, that I can recall.

    Fidonet has been piggy-backing off of the Internet
    for almost 30 years, and at this point, for all
    intents and purposes, FTN-style networks _and_ BBSes
    as a whole are mostly applications running on the
    Internet. Yes yes, there might be a few people
    clinging to dialup someplace, but in general that's
    just not the case anymore.

    And for many of us, even using dialup still requires Internet access. That's certainly true for me. No Internet, no landline nowadays.

    So in order to participate in any FTN-style network,
    at this point, you're practically obliged to have
    Internet access, for which you're already paying.
    The cost of a domain registration amortized over a
    year is pennies per day.

    And that's one domain registration per FTN. If a FTN had 100 nodes and you're paying $20/year for your domain, that's only 20c/year/node. Hardly exorbitant.

    The reality is that without the Internet, Fidonet
    would be completely, not just mostly, dead. I don't
    see any serious reason why it shouldn't use more
    Internet standards and technology.

    True, how many Fidonet nodes could exist without the Internet today?

    As for censorship in the DNS, I don't buy it, either.

    all things outside of the system operator's control. The
    same argument you're making against DNS already applies to
    FTN and nodelists.

    I remember reading arguments about nodelist entries.

    By distributing things over DNS, those issues are
    entirely sidestepped. Administrative decentralization
    is baked into the protocol by design and prevents one
    person at the top from shutting off a particular
    individual unless they're willing to take out an
    entire administrative domain.

    Only the immediate *C above the node could remove their nodelist entry, if the DNS delegations are done properly.

    Not to mention the problems with the preparation,
    maintenance and distribution of that text file.

    Requiring a good knowledge of MakeNL. :) DNS does the "merge" automatically in its distributed design.


    ... Babehart - a cute little pig that slaughters half of Scotland
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Al on Wed Feb 26 14:32:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 13:17, Al wrote to Netsurge <=-

    There is a fullname keyword that tics can use so we can have our cake
    and eat it too.. if we want to.

    Sounds like that would be a good keyword to use, so we can make full use of LFNs where available and have backwards compatibility with 8.3 only systems.


    ... TagLine support contract for renewal. Ignore this if you've already paid. === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 25 23:57:28 2020
    I think there are multiple interpretations of "modem" these days. I see that they do still make dialup modems, but these days, "modem" could
    also refer to a modem for cable, DSL, fiber-optic, etc. for broadband internet.

    I think the original poster was referring to a serial hayes compatible dial
    up modem.

    On a side note, they are crazy ass expensive too, just like old school impact ribbon printers.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Al on Tue Feb 25 23:58:18 2020
    There is a fullname keyword that tics can use so we can have our cake and eat it too.. if we want to.

    Not if you want to keep people interested in this hobby if they are running software from 20 years ago that only supports 8.3.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to tenser on Wed Feb 26 00:03:06 2020
    Compatibility with 8.3 shouldn't be a concern on network
    backbones, for example; but each hub serve legacy clients
    that require 8.3 by exposing a service that dynamically
    translates longer file names into 8.3 or something like
    that.

    Great idea but there is no way to know who is using what, and if you are
    going to say "ask them", well then that kills the whole concept of keeping things compatible.

    Like I said earlier, I am all for moving forward. I posted here months ago
    that I was working on a NNTP based mailer so that end users and downlinks a-like would be able to get mail. Progress will bring us forward, but to eliminate or not support already established technologies and protocols, no matter how old or out dated they are will only dwindle the numbers which
    aren't all that much to begin with.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Wed Feb 26 18:05:31 2020
    On 26 Feb 2020 at 09:08a, Vk3jed pondered and said...

    That problem is not limited to FTN! Software that doesn't adhere to standards has been a problem everywhere. IOW, something, while we want
    to minimise, we can't afford to get hung up on it, or nothing will
    happen. :)

    That's certainly true, but I contend that the issue is
    particularly acute in FTN networking because the standards
    are often ambiguous, and implementations are less than
    rigorous.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Wed Feb 26 00:04:22 2020
    Haha, well, that's their loss. :P Yes, I am on Fidonet, but I'm only an ordinary node, which is probably what I'll stay as for as long as I'm in Fidonet. :)

    I, along with a few others here are part of the administration and we can't even stand it.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 26 18:25:35 2020
    On 25 Feb 2020 at 07:03p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    Compatibility with 8.3 shouldn't be a concern on network
    backbones, for example; but each hub serve legacy clients
    that require 8.3 by exposing a service that dynamically
    translates longer file names into 8.3 or something like
    that.

    Great idea but there is no way to know who is using what, and if you are going to say "ask them", well then that kills the whole concept of
    keeping things compatible.

    How's that? They already get asked a number of questions
    when they join a network: "how do we connect to you?" sorts
    of things.

    But it doesn't even have to be that complex: the legacy systems
    connect to a binkp server or something, just like they do
    today; they get the same data in the same formats that they
    do today. The difference is that, completely transparent
    to them, that data is synthesized on the fly from some other
    format that was transferred to the hub using some other
    protocol.

    Meanwhile, newer software connects directly to some service
    that implements the newer protocol. The old stuff is none
    the wiser that any of this is going on.

    Like I said earlier, I am all for moving forward. I posted here months
    ago that I was working on a NNTP based mailer so that end users and downlinks a-like would be able to get mail. Progress will bring us forward, but to eliminate or not support already established
    technologies and protocols, no matter how old or out dated they are will only dwindle the numbers which aren't all that much to begin with.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to tenser on Wed Feb 26 00:34:44 2020
    I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.

    The suggestion was made multiple times to not hatch out tics in 8.3 format.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to tenser on Wed Feb 26 16:29:00 2020
    On 02-26-20 13:05, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    On 26 Feb 2020 at 09:08a, Vk3jed pondered and said...

    That problem is not limited to FTN! Software that doesn't adhere to standards has been a problem everywhere. IOW, something, while we want
    to minimise, we can't afford to get hung up on it, or nothing will
    happen. :)

    That's certainly true, but I contend that the issue is
    particularly acute in FTN networking because the standards
    are often ambiguous, and implementations are less than
    rigorous.

    All you can do as a developer is to be precise in what you send and tolerant (where possible) in what you receive. :) And in the event of incompatibility, try and convince the maintainer of a dodgy product to fix it, otherwise consider a switch to turn on a workaround if there's no other way.


    ... "I'm sarcastic, what's your superpower?"
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 26 16:31:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 19:04, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Haha, well, that's their loss. :P Yes, I am on Fidonet, but I'm only an ordinary node, which is probably what I'll stay as for as long as I'm in Fidonet. :)

    I, along with a few others here are part of the administration and we can't even stand it.

    Masochists? :D

    The antics in certain echos are just ludicrous. :/ I've seen primary school kids who behave better.


    ... New Mail not found. Start whine-pout sequence? (Y/N)
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 22:27:23 2020
    There is a fullname keyword that tics can use so we can have
    our cake and eat it too.. if we want to.

    Sounds like that would be a good keyword to use, so we can make
    full use of LFNs where available and have backwards compatibility
    with 8.3 only systems.

    Yep, that keyword is for compatibility. The file is transported with an
    8x3 filename in the "File" keyword as always along with the "Fullname"
    keyword with the actual filename. Nodes that support the Fullname keyword
    can import the file with the actual filename and nodes that don't simply
    ignore it and import the 8x3 file.

    MBSE is the only package I know of that supports "Fullname" although
    there may be others. MBSE actually knows the file by it filename (8x3)
    and it's fullname stored as a symlink.

    A bit of stuff there but we remain compatible.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 26 20:13:49 2020
    On 25 Feb 2020 at 07:34p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.

    The suggestion was made multiple times to not hatch out tics in 8.3 format.

    I think that _may_ be conflating things. There might be
    a suggestion to distribute files with long file names;
    that doesn't preclude anyway from providing a fall-back
    compatibility layer that supports short file names.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Vk3jed on Wed Feb 26 04:22:22 2020
    The antics in certain echos are just ludicrous. :/ I've seen primary school kids who behave better.

    You should take a peek at some of the admin echos.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Tenser on Wed Feb 26 07:43:05 2020
    On 26 Feb 20 03:18:39, Tenser said the following to Oli:

    My own sense is that Fidonet in particular has been
    a bastion of censorship for decades, and we see both
    vestiges of this in behavior, and the technology makes
    it particular susceptible to the whims of individuals:
    the whole nodelist thing is ultimately dependent on the
    good will of a few individuals (the people who prepare
    and distribute the nodelist). If one of them decides
    they don't like you? They simply remove your entry.

    True, some of this occured in the past, but not in 2020.

    I guarantee you any Fido ZC who engages in that behavior would either lose their hat or most likely be burnt alive at the stake by everyone in the network. A Fido ZC is watched and studied very carefully by those seeking to have a flame-fest with even the slightest of mistakes. That includes mistakes in RC segments which in turn are considered by some as mistakes by NC's.

    If I fart, Wilfred van Velzen can tell you what I had for supper.

    For Fidonet in particular, I've heard horror stories about
    people trying to get node numbers and it taking months; in
    a way this is a form of censhorship. Simply put, these are

    Some of those stories are correct, but I do not equate all to censorship.

    Not to mention the problems with the preparation,
    maintenance and distribution of that text file.

    That's mickey-mouse easy for me to do. Only Linux ZC's make it complicated.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Al on Wed Feb 26 07:44:31 2020
    On 25 Feb 20 10:37:35, Al said the following to Tenser:

    8x3 file names made perfect sense in 1989 but not so much in 2020. If we could leave things like that behind and work with today's realities it
    would be much easier to move forward.

    8x3 works perfectly fine for the back-office operation of Fidonet, its only when it comes to Filebone stuff where its a limitation.

    But the Filebone is not technically "my problem"...

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 26 07:50:09 2020
    On 25 Feb 20 19:34:44, Netsurge said the following to Tenser:

    I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.

    The suggestion was made multiple times to not hatch out tics in 8.3 format.

    My system cannot process Tic files in anything other than 8x3.

    I have approx. 100 downlinks...

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Vk3Jed on Wed Feb 26 07:51:15 2020
    On 26 Feb 20 11:31:00, Vk3Jed said the following to Netsurge:

    I, along with a few others here are part of the administration and we can't even stand it.

    Masochists? :D

    Not the kind where pleasure is derived from pain.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Al on Thu Feb 27 00:36:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 17:27, Al wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yep, that keyword is for compatibility. The file is transported with an 8x3 filename in the "File" keyword as always along with the "Fullname" keyword with the actual filename. Nodes that support the Fullname
    keyword can import the file with the actual filename and nodes that
    don't simply ignore it and import the 8x3 file.

    MBSE is the only package I know of that supports "Fullname" although
    there may be others. MBSE actually knows the file by it filename (8x3)
    and it's fullname stored as a symlink.

    A bit of stuff there but we remain compatible.

    Cool, that sounds like a good way to do things.


    ... Tech support: Do you see your cursor? Caller: No, I am here all alone. === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 27 00:37:00 2020
    On 02-25-20 23:22, Netsurge wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The antics in certain echos are just ludicrous. :/ I've seen primary school kids who behave better.

    You should take a peek at some of the admin echos.

    The sysop ones are bad enough. ;P


    ... When eating an elephant, take one bite at a time.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Atreyu on Thu Feb 27 02:29:00 2020
    But the Filebone is not technically "my problem"...

    :)

    ░░░░░░░░░░░░▄▄░░░░░░░░░
    ░░░░░░░░░░░█░░█░░░░░░░░
    ░░░░░░░░░░░█░░█░░░░░░░░
    ░░░░░░░░░░█░░░█░░░░░░░░
    ░░░░░░░░░█░░░░█░░░░░░░░
    ███████▄▄█░░░░░██████▄░░
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓█░░░░░░░░░░░░░░█░
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓█░░░░░░░░░░░░░░█░
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓█░░░░░░░░░░░░░░█░
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓█░░░░░░░░░░░░░░█░
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓█░░░░░░░░░░░░░░█░
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓█████░░░░░░░░░█░░
    ██████▀░░░░▀▀██████▀░░


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Atreyu on Thu Feb 27 02:30:00 2020
    can't even stand it.

    Masochists? :D

    Not the kind where pleasure is derived from pain.

    Ahh so Sadists then... :)


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Atreyu on Thu Feb 27 05:22:44 2020
    On 26 Feb 2020 at 02:43a, Atreyu pondered and said...

    Not to mention the problems with the preparation,
    maintenance and distribution of that text file.

    That's mickey-mouse easy for me to do. Only Linux ZC's make it complicated.

    I'd still love to see your scripts sometime, if only
    to understand what goes into it.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to tenser on Thu Feb 27 05:36:21 2020
    On 27 Feb 2020 at 12:22a, tenser pondered and said...



    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

    Oops; I should drink coffee before posting.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From g00r00@21:1/108 to Atreyu on Thu Feb 27 00:21:00 2020
    technology, but it has to play nice with existing systems and you must
    be prepared to deal with inevitable flaming... if you are persistent and

    Ehh most changes those people don't even notice. Mystic has had TLS and AES encrypted mail for a couple of years now for example and none of them
    probably know about it.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Sector 7 (21:1/108)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Tenser on Wed Feb 26 13:51:49 2020
    On 27 Feb 20 00:22:08, Tenser said the following to Atreyu:

    TID: Mystic BBS 1.12 A45
    MSGID: 21:1/101 5ab421bf
    REPLY: 21:1/176 16032D47
    TZUTC: 1300

    Odd, this was a blank message from you?

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to G00R00 on Wed Feb 26 13:54:25 2020
    On 26 Feb 20 19:21:00, G00R00 said the following to Atreyu:

    Ehh most changes those people don't even notice. Mystic has had TLS and AES encrypted mail for a couple of years now for example and none of them probably know about it.

    Thats because your impressive work on Mystic 10 Sharks With Freakin' Lasers Edition was so stealthy and under-the-radar.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Atreyu on Thu Feb 27 08:00:36 2020
    On 26 Feb 2020 at 08:51a, Atreyu pondered and said...

    Odd, this was a blank message from you?

    Yes, lack of caffeine is a hell of a thing. :-/

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Atreyu on Wed Feb 26 14:20:30 2020
    I guarantee you any Fido ZC who engages in that behavior would either
    lose their hat or most likely be burnt alive at the stake by everyone in the network. A Fido ZC is watched and studied very carefully by those seeking to have a flame-fest with even the slightest of mistakes. That includes mistakes in RC segments which in turn are considered by some as mistakes by NC's.

    I'm watching you like a hawk, waiting for your next mistake Mr ZC. Oh, look,
    a squirrel.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Tenser on Wed Feb 26 15:09:28 2020
    On 27 Feb 20 03:00:36, Tenser said the following to Atreyu:

    Odd, this was a blank message from you?

    Yes, lack of caffeine is a hell of a thing. :-/

    Oh good, I thought it was some form of "silent protest". 8-)

    We shall have to correct your behavior through positive re-enforcement.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 26 15:12:21 2020
    On 26 Feb 20 09:20:30, Netsurge said the following to Atreyu:

    I'm watching you like a hawk, waiting for your next mistake Mr ZC. Oh, look, a squirrel.

    I'm going to begin inserting into the Zone 1 segment, many random famous
    quotes from the user with the apparent financial wealth...

    ... before I make nodelists a paid app.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Vk3jed on Wed Feb 26 22:09:17 2020
    26 Feb 20 09:08, you wrote to me:

    But software developers already are unable to keep up with the existing
    standards and some of them
    are FTSC members. Missing REPLY kludges, slow binkp implementations,
    bugs, and I'm not talking
    about tossers that fuck up formatting for in-transit echomail ...

    That problem is not limited to FTN! Software that doesn't adhere to
    standards
    has been a problem everywhere. IOW, something, while we want to minimise,
    we
    can't afford to get hung up on it, or nothing will happen. :)

    I'm just saying that I don't believe much will change in Fidoland, when ZCs, FTSC members and developers
    of contemporary fidonet software are not really interested in standards and good interoperability. This
    is not the Internet, the IETF and cooprations that have the resources to get things done. We are just
    some leftover users from the 90s with a bunch of poorly maintained software (with a few exceptions). Getting
    the bugs fixed and improving the software (based on already exisitng standards)
    are the low hanging
    fruits.

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Vk3jed on Wed Feb 26 22:13:20 2020
    So in order to participate in any FTN-style network,
    at this point, you're practically obliged to have
    Internet access, for which you're already paying.
    The cost of a domain registration amortized over a
    year is pennies per day.

    And that's one domain registration per FTN. If a FTN had 100 nodes and
    you're
    paying $20/year for your domain, that's only 20c/year/node. Hardly
    exorbitant.

    That is the single point of failure and not distributed at all. What hapened to
    fidonet.org? ;)
    But I'm not sure what we are talking about. (1) The FTS-5004 nodelist distribution over DNS or (2) a DNS-based alternative to the
    Nodelist? For the later you need some new standard that hasn't been proposed yet. Do we want to change everything
    from node number based addressing to domain based addresses? Then it is not really Fido anymore, but
    some alternative (and there are lots of communication platforms that already work well). Are there some other ideas?


    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Atreyu on Thu Feb 27 10:30:14 2020
    On 26 Feb 2020 at 10:09a, Atreyu pondered and said...

    Oh good, I thought it was some form of "silent protest". 8-)

    In my defense, I was waiting for the grouphead to
    warm up and the boiler to get up to pressure.

    We shall have to correct your behavior through positive re-enforcement.

    I'm two cups in at this point.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Oli on Wed Feb 26 17:04:25 2020
    On 26 Feb 20 17:09:17, Oli said the following to Vk3Jed:

    I'm just saying that I don't believe much will change in Fidoland, when ZCs, FTSC members and developers
    of contemporary fidonet software are not really interested in standards and good interoperability. This

    There is an old Microsoft saying... "Eat your own dog food", dating back to the takeover of Hotmail. I not only develop Fido/FTN stuff but I run it
    myself with a 100+ downlinks. I'm curious how you arrive at your claims.

    My software interacts with other instances of my software, Internet Rex, Synchronet, MBSE, Mystic 10 Our Amplifiers Go Up To Eleven Edition, you name
    it I hub traffic to it. There was even a dialup-only Wildcat system being fed.

    My software runs the entire back-office operation of ZC1 and ZC2. Zone 1 and 2 comprise the majority of Fidonet.

    That kinda qualifies me for the "FTSC developer" and "standards" catagories.

    The role of the ZC absolutely demands friendly cooperative interaction with zone-specific RC's and other ZC's. Since July 2018, the Zone 1 nodelist has been published like clockwork. I also introduced a proper Zone 1 Daily.

    That kinda qualifies me for the "I know how to interoperate as ZC" catagory.

    In July 2018, it was also telling that the majority of Fido flame wars stopped effectively overnight. That kinda puts me in the "peacemaker" catagory simply by a changing of the guard. Eventually things shifted back to the usual nonsense but absolutely no more "zone wars" which were the majority of Fido's problems. Evidence of this being the Fidonews echo from 2000 to present.

    Fido can handle American politics flamefests, but not Zone or P4 flamefests.

    By blindly siding with my predecessor in Fido who almost single-handedly caused a significant amount of problems for Fidonet, and once again whining without provocation, just-cause or factual evidence, that kinda puts you in
    the "moronic uneducated troll" catagory.

    I have once again politely extended the courtesy for you to take this up with me by Netmail or other means. I suspect your problems are more with ZC2 than with me but you just can't bring yourself to admit it.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to g00r00 on Wed Feb 26 23:19:20 2020
    26 Feb 20 19:21, you wrote to Atreyu:

    There is nothing stopping you or anyone from introducing a new
    technology, but it has to play nice with existing systems and you must
    be prepared to deal with inevitable flaming... if you are persistent and

    Ehh most changes those people don't even notice. Mystic has had TLS and
    AES
    encrypted mail for a couple of years now for example and none of them probably know about it.

    Standards don't write themselves ...

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Tenser on Wed Feb 26 17:37:28 2020
    On 27 Feb 20 05:30:14, Tenser said the following to Atreyu:

    We shall have to correct your behavior through positive re-enforcement.

    I'm two cups in at this point.

    I'm fresh out. I'm off to the store to get another tin.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to tenser on Thu Feb 27 03:49:00 2020
    Oops; I should drink coffee before posting.

    Nah it keeps 'em guessing what you might have been going to say :)


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Oli on Thu Feb 27 12:41:09 2020
    On 26 Feb 2020 at 05:13p, Oli pondered and said...

    So in order to participate in any FTN-style network,
    at this point, you're practically obliged to have
    Internet access, for which you're already paying.
    The cost of a domain registration amortized over a
    year is pennies per day.

    And that's one domain registration per FTN. If a FTN had 100 nodes a
    you're
    paying $20/year for your domain, that's only 20c/year/node. Hardly
    exorbitant.

    That is the single point of failure and not distributed at all. What hapened to fidonet.org? ;)

    No, that's an administrative failing. The problem there
    was relying on a single individual to "own" that domain.
    There are a couple of potential solutions:

    1. Have a distributed organization be the owner of the
    domain, so that it's not beholden to a single person.
    2. Replicate the _data_ across several domains so that
    if any one goes away, there's a backup that can
    become the primary.

    But I'm not sure what we are talking about. (1) The FTS-5004 nodelist distribution over DNS or (2) a DNS-based alternative to the
    Nodelist? For the later you need some new standard that hasn't been proposed yet.

    We should probably start with the former, but I see no
    serious impediment to using that as a basis for the
    latter.

    Do we want to change everything
    from node number based addressing to domain based addresses? Then it is not really Fido anymore, but
    some alternative (and there are lots of communication platforms that already work well). Are there some other ideas?

    I'd like to see something better than Fidonet for shared
    communications. Ultimately, I don't care about FTN and
    its technical or political baggage. But it's an interesting
    engineering challenge to think about how you might come
    up with something better that retains compatibility with
    e.g. FTN via some kind of adapter layer.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to Atreyu on Wed Feb 26 17:50:34 2020
    8x3 works perfectly fine for the back-office operation of Fidonet,
    its only when it comes to Filebone stuff where its a limitation.

    Yep, most files I work with myself would fit in an 8x3 box.

    But the Filebone is not technically "my problem"...

    In truth it's not much more than an inconvenience but we really shouldn't
    need to consider things like "short" or "long" filename. It's just a
    filename.. nothing to be afraid of.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to Atreyu on Wed Feb 26 17:52:14 2020
    My system cannot process Tic files in anything other than 8x3.

    There's not much reason for tic files to go outside of the 8x3 box but
    there again, it's just a filename.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Al on Wed Feb 26 21:07:59 2020
    On 26 Feb 20 12:50:34, Al said the following to Atreyu:

    But the Filebone is not technically "my problem"...

    In truth it's not much more than an inconvenience but we really shouldn't need to consider things like "short" or "long" filename. It's just a filename.. nothing to be afraid of.

    If it wasn't for the fact that there are many downlinks here on this system, I'd sooner just be Netmail-only altogether save for a few echoes. Netmail is what I really enjoy the most; its how I chat with FTN friends privately.

    Even with many things on Passthru, anything beyond 8x3 arrives here in the "manual" directory for my inspection. I just have not had the time or motivation to make beyond-8x3 happen here.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to g00r00 on Wed Feb 26 18:24:25 2020
    There is nothing stopping you or anyone from introducing a new
    technology, but it has to play nice with existing systems and
    you must be prepared to deal with inevitable flaming... if you
    are persistent and

    Ehh most changes those people don't even notice. Mystic has had
    TLS and AES encrypted mail for a couple of years now for example
    and none of them probably know about it.

    This is really something that should be built so it can work with
    different software.

    I'm not sure how the FTSC goes about documenting new things. A proposal
    before a standard can be determined?

    But both the encrypting of netmail and binkps are things we could be
    promoting to standards.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to Atreyu on Wed Feb 26 18:30:18 2020
    I'm fresh out. I'm off to the store to get another tin.

    I always buy 2 tins so I am never out.. ;)

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Atreyu on Wed Feb 26 21:35:00 2020
    I'm going to begin inserting into the Zone 1 segment, many random famous quotes from the user with the apparent financial wealth...

    The next net 229 segment you send me will be modified by me before I send you back the regional segment (circle jerk anyone). My net 229 entry shall now be:

    Hub,101,Diskshop_BBS,Toronto_ON,Frank_Fucking_Dorf_Linhares

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 27 15:52:29 2020
    On 26 Feb 2020 at 04:35p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    Hub,101,Diskshop_BBS,Toronto_ON,Frank_Fucking_Dorf_Linhares

    Of course, none of you have ever heard me speak,
    but try and picture this spoken with a New York
    accent: "What da fuck is a dorf?"

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to Atreyu on Wed Feb 26 18:59:31 2020
    If it wasn't for the fact that there are many downlinks here on
    this system,

    On a system like yours with so many links it's different.

    I'd sooner just be Netmail-only altogether save for a few echoes.
    Netmail is what I really enjoy the most; its how I chat with FTN
    friends privately.

    I enjoy echomail the most. I like to hear different views from different
    folks about the topic at hand. The only time I use netmail is when
    setting up links or when discussing something private.

    I used to netmail with Roger a lot but since he passed I don't get
    netmail often.. unless there is a problem.. :)

    Even with many things on Passthru, anything beyond 8x3 arrives here
    in the "manual" directory for my inspection. I just have not had
    the time or motivation to make beyond-8x3 happen here.

    In time (I hope) software will catch up. In the meantime there are ways
    and means to keep compatible. Just use 8x3 filenames or use the Fullname keyword.


    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Netsurge on Wed Feb 26 22:03:47 2020
    On 26 Feb 20 16:35:00, Netsurge said the following to Atreyu:

    The next net 229 segment you send me will be modified by me before I send yo back the regional segment (circle jerk anyone). My net 229 entry shall now b

    Hub,101,Diskshop_BBS,Toronto_ON,Frank_Fucking_Dorf_Linhares

    Its about time we have some Fucks in Fidonet... we've never had them before.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to tenser on Wed Feb 26 23:50:36 2020
    Of course, none of you have ever heard me speak,
    but try and picture this spoken with a New York
    accent: "What da fuck is a dorf?"

    $ The Millionaire $ <- dorf

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Atreyu on Wed Feb 26 23:51:52 2020
    Its about time we have some Fucks in Fidonet... we've never had them before.

    As your RC I command you to do it, then again, as my ZC you could deny it.
    Have I mentioned that this is a circle jerk?

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 27 01:02:59 2020
    On 26 Feb 20 18:51:52, Netsurge said the following to Atreyu:

    Its about time we have some Fucks in Fidonet... we've never had them before.

    As your RC I command you to do it, then again, as my ZC you could deny it. Have I mentioned that this is a circle jerk?

    Its only a circle jerk if there's a happy ending.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 27 19:04:58 2020
    On 26 Feb 2020 at 06:50p, Netsurge pondered and said...

    Of course, none of you have ever heard me speak,
    but try and picture this spoken with a New York
    accent: "What da fuck is a dorf?"

    $ The Millionaire $ <- dorf

    Well, that's clear; but like, what's the etymology
    of the word "dorf"?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to tenser on Thu Feb 27 14:58:00 2020
    Oh good, I thought it was some form of "silent protest". 8-)

    In my defense, I was waiting for the grouphead to warm up and the
    boiler to get up to pressure.

    You'll have to pedal faster to make up te slack ;)

    We shall have to correct your behavior through positive
    re-enforcement.

    I'm two cups in at this point.

    Making up for lost doses?

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)
  • From g00r00@21:1/108 to Al on Thu Feb 27 14:09:46 2020
    Ehh most changes those people don't even notice. Mystic has had
    TLS and AES encrypted mail for a couple of years now for example
    and none of them probably know about it.

    This is really something that should be built so it can work with different software.

    It can be, but people historically aren't interested. I did the opportunistic TLS step up extension for BINKP and documented it. At least one person had a meltdown about opportunistic TLS and I believe the BINKD people outright said they would never do it when someone asked (?).

    (At least in this case, I just removed it and made Mystic BINKP have a direct SSL server instead since that can be kludged with BINKD and Synchronet can do it too. But the extension would have been seamless with existing setups)

    I'm not sure how the FTSC goes about documenting new things. A proposal before a standard can be determined?

    I could write a proposal for the AES256 encryption but as someone else who is part of the FidoNet team said here, proposals do little to nothing these days because people will argue over nothing and accomplish nothing.

    And while I have never personally tried it, most of the people who have been problematic and outright vindictive and ridiculous in their behavior on this network are those very FidoNet people. That tends to reenforce the "argue and do nothing" types of statements that come from the likes of zone and region coordinators who have first hand experience.

    Some people would rather cause problems and behave unreasonably than to see accomplishment.

    To be honest I think a more effective approach would be to work with Rob from Synchronet to build things. We could get something done and instantly have a large adoption rate and then others can follow or not. The alternative being that we make a FTN proposal and it sits there doing absolutely nothing.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/02/27 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Sector 7 (21:1/108)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Atreyu on Thu Feb 27 02:52:28 2020
    Its only a circle jerk if there's a happy ending.

    There is nothing happy about Fidonet.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to tenser on Thu Feb 27 02:53:42 2020
    Well, that's clear; but like, what's the etymology
    of the word "dorf"?

    That is a good question, I kinda just came up with it on the spot. I wanted
    to avoid calling him a Fucking moronic nimrod so he didn't mount his pulpit
    and preach about the evils of swearing.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Oli on Thu Feb 27 13:02:00 2020
    On 02-26-20 17:09, Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I'm just saying that I don't believe much will change in Fidoland, when ZCs, FTSC members and developers
    of contemporary fidonet software are not really interested in standards and good interoperability. This
    is not the Internet, the IETF and cooprations that have the resources
    to get things done. We are just
    some leftover users from the 90s with a bunch of poorly maintained software (with a few exceptions). Getting
    the bugs fixed and improving the software (based on already exisitng standards)
    are the low hanging
    fruits.

    If the project is open source, then either working with the developer, or if all else fails, forking it will work. Similarly, for closed source projects still in development, working with the developer is an option. But there's also a bunch of implementations that are abandonware. Not going to be able to much about those.


    ... A diplomat is a man who thinks twice before saying nothing.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Oli on Thu Feb 27 13:08:00 2020
    On 02-26-20 17:13, Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    So in order to participate in any FTN-style network,
    at this point, you're practically obliged to have
    Internet access, for which you're already paying.
    The cost of a domain registration amortized over a
    year is pennies per day.

    And that's one domain registration per FTN. If a FTN had 100 nodes and
    you're
    paying $20/year for your domain, that's only 20c/year/node. Hardly
    exorbitant.

    That is the single point of failure and not distributed at all. What hapened to
    fidonet.org? ;)

    Someone screwed up one way or another.

    But I'm not sure what we are talking about. (1) The FTS-5004 nodelist distribution over DNS or (2) a DNS-based alternative to the
    Nodelist? For the later you need some new standard that hasn't been proposed yet. Do we want to change everything
    from node number based addressing to domain based addresses? Then it is not really Fido anymore, but
    some alternative (and there are lots of communication platforms that already work well). Are there some other ideas?

    There is no reason you can't distribute FTS-5004. You just have to delegate those parts under different administration at the z or n level as appropriate, and they can even be hosted on separate DNS servers.

    If I created a new zone in VKRadio and wanted to have someone else administer it, I could do something like:

    z433.ftn.vkradio.com. IN NS ns1.zone433.com
    z433.ftn.vkradio.com. IN NS ns2.zone433.com

    Then it's up to the administration of zone 433 to maintain the DNS entries for that zone, on the server ns1.zone433.com, wherever that is. Addresses like f103.n2.z433.ftn.vkradio.com would still resolve correctly as per FTS-5004, but I would have no role in maintaining that part of the nodelist.


    ... Before you find your handsome prince, you've got to kiss a lot of frogs. === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Spectre on Thu Feb 27 23:20:17 2020
    On 27 Feb 2020 at 09:58a, Spectre pondered and said...

    In my defense, I was waiting for the grouphead to warm up and the boiler to get up to pressure.

    You'll have to pedal faster to make up te slack ;)

    Heh.

    I'm two cups in at this point.

    Making up for lost doses?

    Phfft. That's just getting started!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to g00r00 on Thu Feb 27 02:30:38 2020
    It can be, but people historically aren't interested. I did the opportunistic TLS step up extension for BINKP and documented it.
    At least one person had a meltdown about opportunistic TLS and I
    believe the BINKD people outright said they would never do it when
    someone asked (?).

    I haven't heard anything from any binkd developers. A fair bit of chatter amoungst binkd users.. some for and some against. Some wanted
    opportunistic and some didn't.

    I am using tls with one node, we both run binkd. I connect with a couple
    of mystic nodes (probably more!) so I'll see if they'd like to try it and
    see if we can get it going.

    I'm not sure how the FTSC goes about documenting new things. A
    proposal before a standard can be determined?

    I could write a proposal for the AES256 encryption but as someone
    else who is part of the FidoNet team said here, proposals do little
    to nothing these days because people will argue over nothing and accomplish nothing.

    There is enough of that to go around for sure. I'm inclined to leave
    those folks where they are and get involved with those who would like to
    see this happen and just take it a step at a time.

    To be honest I think a more effective approach would be to work
    with Rob from Synchronet to build things.

    Agreed. I have links with a number of binkd, Synchronet and Mystic nodes
    so I'll see if I can get some testing underway.

    We could get something done and instantly have a large adoption
    rate and then others can follow or not. The alternative being that
    we make a FTN proposal and it sits there doing absolutely nothing.

    A proposal or ultimately a standard would be good. I've talked with Kim
    Heino (BBBS author) about things I'd like to see in BBBS. He does care
    for BBBS although he likes the FTS to look at or perhaps a proposal that clearly explains the goals and how to's would be enough for him or other software authors to have a look at what we are trying to accomplish and
    be a part of that.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From alter ego@21:2/116 to Al on Thu Feb 27 21:38:10 2020
    Re: RE: Netmail
    By: Al to Vk3jed on Tue Feb 25 2020 05:27 pm

    MBSE is the only package I know of that supports "Fullname" although
    there may be others. MBSE actually knows the file by it filename (8x3)
    and it's fullname stored as a symlink.

    Actually, MBSE did a bad job of long file names. I ran MBSE and lost a few files because of it.

    It would convert a long name to a short name, and then symlink to it as you say
    - but the conversion was 8.3 - it was 11 chars. ie: mystica112a45_l32.rar would be converted to and stored as mystica1.12a, and the long name linked to it. So ..l64, ..l32.., ..o64, ..w64, ..w32 all pointed to the same file. :(

    It also didnt handle the TIC's themselves, if they were longer than 11 chars - it would try and delete the filename when it internally converted its name to 11 chars (which resulted in a file not found). Same problem also, when it would
    try and throw the files into the bad dir, when it existed in the target directory...

    The net result was my inbound was fully of partially processed files, and my filebases had many files symlinked to the same file :(

    I did document it and posted it in MBSE - but I dont think that it went anywhere...
    ...deon


    ... Communism is the opiate of the intellectuals.
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (21:2/116)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to alter ego on Thu Feb 27 03:14:28 2020
    MBSE is the only package I know of that supports "Fullname"
    although there may be others. MBSE actually knows the file by
    it filename (8x3) and it's fullname stored as a symlink.

    Actually, MBSE did a bad job of long file names. I ran MBSE and
    lost a few files because of it.

    Yep, that was Michiel Broek's attempt and bridging that gap. It could
    probably work but might need a massage.

    It would convert a long name to a short name, and then symlink to
    it as you say - but the conversion was 8.3 - it was 11 chars. ie: mystica112a45_l32.rar would be converted to and stored as
    mystica1.12a, and the long name linked to it. So ..l64, ..l32..,
    ..o64, ..w64, ..w32 all pointed to the same file. :(

    I took MBSE out for a spin last month. I saw an option to send nodes 8.3
    file names if that's what they wanted. It sent a chill up my spine.. :)

    It's not a bad idea but you need to be carefull at each step of the way
    or you end up in a bad place.

    It also didnt handle the TIC's themselves, if they were longer than
    11 chars - it would try and delete the filename when it internally converted its name to 11 chars (which resulted in a file not
    found). Same problem also, when it would try and throw the files
    into the bad dir, when it existed in the target directory...

    The simplest answer is to accept file names as they are, but of course
    that isn't always possible.

    I did document it and posted it in MBSE - but I dont think that it
    went anywhere...

    That's going to be a tough nut to crack so if someone is going to move
    the issue at all.. they need to have the free time to complete it.

    Aside from the filename issue though, I think MBSE is a rather awesome ticer/tosser/mailer. Well thought out and implimented with a nice real
    time view of what's happening.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.14alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: Equinox BBS - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From g00r00@21:1/108 to Al on Thu Feb 27 21:15:28 2020
    I am using tls with one node, we both run binkd. I connect with a couple of mystic nodes (probably more!) so I'll see if they'd like to try it and see if we can get it going.

    That would be great. I haven't tested it with anything other than the A46 fidopoll in Windows so I could really use some help there :)

    Heino (BBBS author) about things I'd like to see in BBBS. He does care
    for BBBS although he likes the FTS to look at or perhaps a proposal that clearly explains the goals and how to's would be enough for him or other software authors to have a look at what we are trying to accomplish and
    be a part of that.

    That of course makes sense. I don't think it has to be in the form of a FTS proposal though, but it could easily go that direction. I just don't think its a viable starting point and that it'd be better to get something working, documented, and then reach out to a few others who might be wiling to support it to get their feedback for changes and so on.

    Maybe once everything is working for that particular extension and there are some people supporting it, then the document can be massaged into an official FTN proposal which can then sit there and go nowhere :p

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/02/27 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Sector 7 (21:1/108)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to g00r00 on Fri Feb 28 02:24:00 2020
    On 02-27-20 09:09, g00r00 wrote to Al <=-

    To be honest I think a more effective approach would be to work with
    Rob from Synchronet to build things. We could get something done and instantly have a large adoption rate and then others can follow or not.
    The alternative being that we make a FTN proposal and it sits there
    doing absolutely nothing.

    I agree, just do it. If someone wants to document it as a standard, great. If they don't, who cares? You're still advancing the art and working with other developers to do so.


    ... Borrow a few lines = Plagiarism. Steal *volumes* = Research.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to tenser on Thu Feb 27 13:59:30 2020
    27 Feb 20 07:41, you wrote to me:

    On 26 Feb 2020 at 05:13p, Oli pondered and said...

    And that's one domain registration per FTN. If a FTN had 100 nodes a
    you're
    paying $20/year for your domain, that's only 20c/year/node. Hardly
    exorbitant.

    That is the single point of failure and not distributed at all. What
    hapened to fidonet.org? ;)

    No, that's an administrative failing. The problem there
    was relying on a single individual to "own" that domain.
    There are a couple of potential solutions:

    1. Have a distributed organization be the owner of the
    domain, so that it's not beholden to a single person.
    2. Replicate the _data_ across several domains so that
    if any one goes away, there's a backup that can
    become the primary.

    That sounds nice in theory, but it's unlikely that it will happen and it adds a
    lot of complexity. The nodelist is intentionally that
    simple. The coordinator bullshit and power structure was an unfortunate side effect, but the nodelist itself is a very reliable and
    decentralized lookup mechanism.

    But yeah, let's revive IFNA ;)

    But I'm not sure what we are talking about. (1) The FTS-5004 nodelist
    distribution over DNS or (2) a DNS-based alternative to the
    Nodelist? For the later you need some new standard that hasn't been
    proposed yet.

    We should probably start with the former, but I see no
    serious impediment to using that as a basis for the
    latter.

    How would that be more decentralized?

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Netsurge on Thu Feb 27 16:00:56 2020
    26 Feb 20 21:53, you wrote to tenser:

    Well, that's clear; but like, what's the etymology
    of the word "dorf"?

    That is a good question, I kinda just came up with it on the spot. I
    wanted
    to avoid calling him a Fucking moronic nimrod so he didn't mount his
    pulpit
    and preach about the evils of swearing.

    Is it short for Dorftrottel (German for village idiot)?

    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From Oli@21:1/151 to Vk3jed on Thu Feb 27 19:09:41 2020
    27 Feb 20 21:24, you wrote to g00r00:

    On 02-27-20 09:09, g00r00 wrote to Al <=-
    To be honest I think a more effective approach would be to work with
    Rob from
    Synchronet to build things. We could get something done and instantly
    have a large
    adoption rate and then others can follow or not. The alternative being
    that we
    make a FTN proposal and it sits there doing absolutely nothing.

    I agree, just do it. If someone wants to document it as a standard,
    great. If
    they don't, who cares? You're still advancing the art and working with
    other
    developers to do so.

    It still would be good to announce that people are working on stuff. An IETF working group is open to anyone and discussions are public
    (mailing list, (recordings of) meetings, drafts).


    --- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
    * Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Oli on Fri Feb 28 08:28:56 2020
    On 27 Feb 2020 at 08:59a, Oli pondered and said...

    1. Have a distributed organization be the owner of the
    domain, so that it's not beholden to a single person.
    2. Replicate the _data_ across several domains so that
    if any one goes away, there's a backup that can
    become the primary.

    That sounds nice in theory, but it's unlikely that it will happen and it adds a lot of complexity. The nodelist is intentionally that
    simple. The coordinator bullshit and power structure was an unfortunate side effect, but the nodelist itself is a very reliable and
    decentralized lookup mechanism.

    I'm not _really_ suggesting this for Fidonet. :-) I mean,
    it would be nice, but it just ain't gonna change.

    The nodelist can hardly be said to be "decentralized", however.
    Ultimately, the zone coordinators collate things that they
    receive from the coordinators further down the hierarchy and
    from each other and produce a file that is, nominally, the
    same globally. That centralizes the process into the manual
    intervention of three people. Each step along the way is
    pushing more data through an ever-narrowing funnel.

    But yeah, let's revive IFNA ;)

    I'm not trying to convince you. :-)

    But I'm not sure what we are talking about. (1) The FTS-5004 nodelis
    distribution over DNS or (2) a DNS-based alternative to the
    Nodelist? For the later you need some new standard that hasn't been
    proposed yet.

    We should probably start with the former, but I see no
    serious impediment to using that as a basis for the
    latter.

    How would that be more decentralized?

    For all the same reasons I've already mentioned. Note
    that when talking about a "new standard" that does not,
    in my mind, automatically imply something like the FTSC.
    It's a document produced between principal authors.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Netsurge@21:4/154 to Oli on Thu Feb 27 14:55:54 2020
    Is it short for Dorftrottel (German for village idiot)?

    I had no idea that Dorftrottel meant village idiot in German. Perfect definition for dorf in this case.

    |15frank |08// |15netsurge
    |07disksh0p|08!|07bbs |08% |07bbs.diskshop.ca |08% |07mystic goodness |11SciNet |03ftn hq |08% |07https://scinet-ftn.org

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: % disksh0p!bbs % bbs.diskshop.ca % SciNet ftn hq % (21:4/154)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Oli on Fri Feb 28 14:31:00 2020
    On 02-27-20 14:09, Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    It still would be good to announce that people are working on stuff. An IETF working group is open to anyone and discussions are public
    (mailing list, (recordings of) meetings, drafts).

    Agree, that sort of announcement and cooperation would be good.


    ... Been there, done that, tripped alarm, came here.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to Netsurge on Fri Feb 28 15:21:26 2020
    That is so. I haven't had a modem in 20 years now. Do they still
    manufacture modems today? I doubt it.

    They absolutely still make modems. I just refreshed all of the ones we
    have
    connected to our core routers and mpls routers. If our MPLS goes down
    or a
    bad config is applied the only option is to dial into the routers
    albeit via
    POTS or cellular.

    I wouldn't say I collect modems but I keep every one I manage to get my hands on. Have several USR v.everything modems, a USR SPortster and some other modems
    as well. Used to use one for my BBS (and maybe I should start doing that again... :) ) and I guess I keep them because of sentimental reasons and also because they may end up having some value one day.


    --- NiKom v2.5.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (21:2/130.0)
  • From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to Netsurge on Sat Feb 29 03:08:17 2020
    And if Fidonet doesn't follow our lead, their loss, again, who cares? :)

    Fidonet follow a lead, bahaha. That circle jerk will do nothing but
    bitch and
    complain while 50 and 60 year old men eat nacho chips in their
    underwear at
    their moms house.

    Heyy... nothing wrong with nachos..


    --- NiKom v2.5.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (21:2/130.0)
  • From Zip@21:1/202 to Joacim Melin on Sat Feb 29 02:20:59 2020
    Hello Joacim!

    On 28 Feb 2020, Joacim Melin said the following...
    I wouldn't say I collect modems but I keep every one I manage to get my hands on. Have several USR v.everything modems, a USR SPortster and some other modems as well. Used to use one for my BBS (and maybe I should
    start doing that again... :) ) and I guess I keep them because of sentimental reasons and also because they may end up having some value
    one day.

    They are nice collectors' items I think. :)

    By the way, USR now seem to have replaced their "Courier External 56K V.92 Global Dial-Up Business Modem" (phew!) (USR83453C) -- aka "Courier V.Everything" -- with a new model, the "Courier Lite 56K Dial-Up Business Modem" (USR5686G-PRO).

    Appears to be a V.Everything but running on new hardware, all put into a Sportster enclosure (like the rather recent "56K V.92 Serial Controller
    Dial-Up External Faxmodem" (USR5686G).

    From the specs the USR5686G-PRO appears to support everything *except* HST, which was one of the main features of the Courier series in the 80s, if I recall correctly...

    Best regards
    Zip

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Star Collision BBS, Uppsala, Sweden (21:1/202)
  • From Al@21:4/106 to tenser on Fri Feb 28 17:49:26 2020
    I see the situation on fight-o-net similarly; who
    cares what the FTSC does or doesn't do? For that
    matter, who cares what the Fidonet *Cs say about,
    well, anything? It's the same four or five bitter
    guys saying the same stuff and hashing out the same
    stupid arguments over and over again, like they
    have been for decades now. Maybe that mattered
    (for small values of mattering) back in the day
    when there was more than a few hundred systems on
    Fidonet, but those days are long gone and just
    aren't coming back. So F 'em. Salvage what
    you can out of the technology and make these networks
    what you want them to be.

    Yeah, Fidonet can be a real.. umm.. animal.

    The thing the FTSC has always done, or at least tried to do is to
    document current practice. That's a good thing for all of us as far as
    FTN things. It gives those who are implementing FTN things a guiding
    light so there implementations can work with existing implementations.

    There are folks on the FTSC who want to do that without a lot of
    politics. I don't know any of the FTSC members personaly but with few exceptions never see them posting about fido politics. That generaly
    comes from outside the FTSC.

    I wish them every success doing that.

    Aside from that though I think the sky is the limit on things we develop.
    Most of it is probably outside anything the FTSC needs to know or care
    about. It's only in matters of mailers and tossers really where the FTSC
    needs to be considered.

    The FTSC was never a policing organization. The don't tell people what to develop or how to develop it or how to use it. They simply aim to
    document current practice.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- MagickaBBS v0.13alpha (Linux/x86_64)
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to tenser on Thu Feb 27 21:35:00 2020
    this spoken with a New York accent: "What da fuck is a dorf?"

    Here, its a brand of brass tap fittings...

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Netsurge on Thu Apr 2 00:50:33 2020
    Just checking did you get my netmail?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/03/26 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Zip on Thu May 28 10:27:00 2020
    Hey there,
    Ok, so I receive netmail, I just can't send it. :) Erm, all you sent ìme was the BBS name?

    Spec


    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: (21:3/101)
  • From Zip@21:1/202 to Spectre on Thu May 28 22:47:36 2020
    Hello Spec!

    On 28 May 2020, Spectre said the following...
    Hey there,
    Ok, so I receive netmail, I just can't send it. :) Erm, all you sent me
    was the BBS name?

    Really strange -- all the details were in my outbound message as far as I know -- but I have re-sent the details as a reply to one of your previous netmails now. Hopefully you'll receive all details this time. :)

    Best regards
    Zip

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/04/21 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Star Collision BBS, Uppsala, Sweden (21:1/202)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Sneaky on Sat May 30 20:14:25 2020
    Dropped you a quick netmail to your 1/152 node, can you have a look and
    netmail me back please :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/04/20 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Sneaky@21:1/152 to Avon on Sun May 31 15:04:00 2020
    Hi Avon

    Dropped you a quick netmail to your 1/152 node, can you have a look and netmail me back please :)

    Have replyed to you netmail, thank you

    Ian S 2nd Choice Core Mystic Nz
    ___ MultiMail/Win v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A46 2020/04/09 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: 2nd Choice Core : New Zealand (21:1/152)
  • From apam@21:1/126.1 to All on Mon Nov 30 01:17:13 2020
    Ok, Another question :)

    If a netmail arrives in my inbound, and it is not for me, and I have no
    routing infomation applicable to it, should I attempt to send it on?

    that is, assuming binkd has nodelist support...

    So far, only if a netmail is entered locally with no routing information
    it's sent to binkd in hopes it can deliver it.

    Andrew


    --- Talisman v0.7-dev (Linux/armv7l)
    * Origin: HappyLand v2.0 - telnet://happyland.zapto.org:11892/ (21:1/126.1)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to apam on Sun Nov 29 07:42:09 2020
    Re: Netmail
    By: apam to All on Sun Nov 29 2020 08:17 pm

    If a netmail arrives in my inbound, and it is not for me, and I have no routing infomation applicable to it, should I attempt to send it on?

    A node should never send netmail to your node for routing unless you have an agreement to do so. Not all nodes have netmail routes in their config.

    If I have an agreement with a node to route mail I will forward it in a direction that works. I do that for any netmail that passes through here but if I don't link with the destination then it just gets routed the best I can.

    So far, only if a netmail is entered locally with no routing information it's sent to binkd in hopes it can deliver it.

    That's the way most nodes are setup and that's one reason you shouldn't route netmail without an agreement.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    ... No amount of planning will replace dumb luck
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to apam on Mon Nov 30 12:13:00 2020
    apam wrote to All <=-

    If a netmail arrives in my inbound, and it is not for me, and I have no routing infomation applicable to it, should I attempt to send it on?

    that is, assuming binkd has nodelist support...

    Normally, I'd set up a routing rule at the bottom of the list routing
    any mail that I didn't have rules for to my uplink. Do you have a
    similar default rule?



    ... FOR SYSOP USE ONLY - Do not write below this line.
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From apam@21:1/182.1 to All on Fri Jan 15 02:57:10 2021
    Hi,

    If anyone has sent me netmail to HappyLand today, I may have lost it.

    I got 2 from kutlu which I received 65 times lol, seems there was a
    packet in my inbound causing postie to crash, and re import the same
    netmail... I didn't think to save the packets in my inbound so I couldn't
    debug it.

    Whether the dodgy packet was a netmail or an echo mail I don't know, but
    if you sent one today, it is probably lost and I didn't read it.

    Andrew


    --- Talisman v0.10-dev (Windows/x86)
    * Origin: Blackbox - apam's black box under the dvd player. (21:1/182.1)
  • From Starstorm@21:3/140 to All on Wed Apr 7 13:39:17 2021
    Could someone send me Netmail. I messed around with some stuff again, and
    want to be sure I didn't break it.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Ground Control (21:3/140)
  • From Al@21:4/106.1 to Starstorm on Wed Apr 7 12:03:34 2021
    Re: Netmail
    By: Starstorm to All on Wed Apr 07 2021 01:39 pm

    Could someone send me Netmail. I messed around with some stuff again, and want to be sure I didn't break it.

    I just sent you a netmail.. you should probably have it already.

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    ... Ummm, Trouble with grammar have I, Yes! -Yoda-
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)
  • From Daniel Path@21:4/148 to Starstorm on Wed Apr 7 21:18:07 2021
    Hello Starstorm.

    07 Apr 21 13:39, you wrote to All:

    Could someone send me Netmail. I messed around with some stuff again,
    and want to be sure I didn't break it.

    i've sent one


    Daniel

    --- GoldED+/EMX 1.1.4.7
    * Origin: Roon's BBS - Budapest, HUNGARY (21:4/148)
  • From Warpslide@21:3/110 to Starstorm on Wed Apr 7 17:06:24 2021
    *** Quoting Starstorm from a message to All ***

    Could someone send me Netmail. I messed around with some stuff again,
    and want to be sure I didn't break it.

    Just sent a netmail your way.

    Jay

    ... Common sense is instinct. Enough of it is genius.

    --- Telegard v3.09.g2-sp4/mL
    * Origin: Northern Realms | 289-424-5180 | bbs.nrbbs.net (21:3/110)
  • From Nigel Reed@21:2/101 to Starstorm on Wed Apr 7 16:22:09 2021
    Starstorm wrote:
    Could someone send me Netmail. I messed around with some stuff again, and want to be sure I didn't break it.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Ground Control (21:3/140)

    Sent at 4:20pm CT.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (21:2/101)
  • From Nodoka Hanamura@21:2/106 to Starstorm on Thu Apr 8 03:52:29 2021
    On 07 Apr 2021, Starstorm said the following...

    132
    Could someone send me Netmail. I messed around with some stuff again, and want to be sure I didn't break it.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Ground Control (21:3/140)

    Sure, gimme a sec and I'll shoot one your way.

    Born too late to experience the scene.
    Born just in time to see it come back.
    Nodoka Hanamura - NeoCincinnati BBS SYSOP - neocinci.bbs.io

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: NeoCincinnati BBS - neocinci.bbs.io:23 (21:2/106)
  • From fusion@21:1/616 to Warpslide on Wed Apr 7 17:42:59 2021
    On 07 Apr 2021, Warpslide said the following...

    Just sent a netmail your way.

    most popular netmail user on the net !

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/04/01 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Warpslide on Sun Jun 6 22:18:08 2021
    Hey, got your netmail, but something screwed up with the addressing, my reply went to 1:1/0, which is obviously wring. You can email me at vk3jed@vkradio.com, until we get netmail happening at least.
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Nov 23 16:52:39 2021
    On 19 Nov 2021 at 07:22a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    Until recently, I would remote desktop into my work laptop with my home
    PC and 2 monitors. I'd have a separate work environment and play environment, and that helped separate the two areas. One the weekends, I'd close the work laptop.

    I'm fortunate in that I have a work laptop that I can connect to work networks etc. and do work stuff on. Then I have a desktop PC I use for home stuff and play (well there's other play computers around the house too!)

    On the weekends I physically put the laptop away and clear the table I use for both work and play. But also on the weekends I have spent more time lately doing stuff outside and away from the desk I am writing this reply.

    I think that's a good move for my soul :)

    Docker is a lot of fun, I'm running Proxmox with LXC containers and have an Ubuntu docker host running in a VM. Nginx Proxy Manager, Pi-Hole and
    a couple of apps are running in containers.

    I think I'll likely try to build a new HDD and OS etc. and reinstall docker there... that said I'm not super motivated to do so, asides a perception that the system I did set up for my BBS and 1/100 HUB has some permissions issues that I can't put my finger on... so to do a re-do may be the way to go and strengthen my Linux learnings. :)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Avon on Tue Nov 23 07:51:00 2021
    Avon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    On the weekends I physically put the laptop away and clear the table I
    use for both work and play. But also on the weekends I have spent more time lately doing stuff outside and away from the desk I am writing
    this reply.

    One habit I need to get back into (once the dust settles from a recent
    kitchen remodel and all of the equipment is gone) is taking my lunch
    outside. I did that all through 2020 and sort of fell out of the habit as
    time went on.

    I think that's a good move for my soul :)

    Amen to that.


    ... It's all more or less the same.. but it's all different now.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Nov 27 17:18:28 2021
    On 23 Nov 2021 at 07:51a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    One habit I need to get back into (once the dust settles from a recent kitchen remodel and all of the equipment is gone) is taking my lunch outside. I did that all through 2020 and sort of fell out of the habit
    as time went on.

    I need to do this more also...

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)